Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-)

["Bozhidar Batsov" <bozhidar@batsov.dev>]

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> Danny has already said he would revisit the matter, so I wouldn't speak
> for him.  Of course, if the answer is still no, then something else will
> eventually come into Emacs.

I'll leave him to speak for himself, but we've been collaborating a bit since the beginning and I've always intended that eventually clojure-ts-mode will become clojure-mode. (see https://metaredux.com/posts/2023/03/12/clojure-mode-meets-tree-sitter.html) 

> As far as I could see, Danny's clojure-ts-mode at the moment is little
> more than a basic Lisp editing mode build on top of tree sitter.  Not
> much more than what Philip suggested earlier and I implemented.  Namely
> it's got no CIDER integration.  At a certain point, someone will have to
> make changes to CIDER to support it as well, so it's a good oppornity to
> decouple things and that will be good for whatever Clojure mode in Emacs

CIDER will support clojure-ts-mode - that's another things we've discussed with Danny. The work required is not particularly complicated, although a few of the features would be hard to implement in terms of tree-sitter, so we might need to keep around the "legacy" clojure-mode in some form down the road. 

> If integrating a new major mode with CIDER is so difficult, don't fret
> about it.  You don't have to help if you don't want to.  I have decent
> past experience of dealing with such RPC-based systems (SLIME SLY and
> Eglot) and they're really not as transcendental as you make them sound.
> In the horizon there are other things such as DAP (Debugger Adapter
> Protocol) that Emacs will probably want to support in the future.

By all means - go and re-create CIDER as well, oh all mighty Wizard of the RPC! :-) Yeah, I'm totally making shit up just to sound important and you've exposed me to the world! Shame on me!

The core evaluation functionality in CIDER is trivial and I have no doubt that anyone who's determined can re-create it. CIDER was already forked once and kind of rewritten once with a different eval backend. Both projects didn't get very far, but they say that 3rd time is the charm! 

> And no, I don't have to be A Bozhidar-Certified Clojure Programmer to
> want to help out, just as I don't speak 90% of the languages Eglot
> supports, for example and I still try them out for time to time.

Another snarky unwarranted remark, but whatever. Clearly you don't want us to have a civil conversation. 

> If I went by instinct or "the gist" of what you seem to be saying I'd
> say it really sounds like you want to avoid a new Clojure mode in Emacs
> at all costs.  But look, no one is coming for your life's work, really,
> noone is trying to beat you, best you or take away your Clojure street
> cred that you keep boasting about.  So cool down and enjoy your holiday.

Another brilliant insight! I really wonder how the f**k you come up with those accusations??? If you think that my self-esteem in life comes from work on Emacs packages - I have to break it to you, but it doesn't. I get "endless satisfaction" from wasting my spare time on random projects for free, so I can be attacked by people like you on mailing lists, right? Hell, yeah!!!

One a less bitter note - I've welcomed Danny's idea to start work on a replacement for clojure-mode and I believe I've been supportive of his work every step of the way (Danny can, of course, confirm this for himself). I've already shared earlier in this message the rough plan for how clojure-mode and clojure-ts-mode should evolve in the next couple of years. I'm juggling more projects that I have time for and the only reason I got involved in clojure-mode is that there was no one else willing to do the work that was required. And you dare accuse me of pumping my ego by clinging to its "ownership"? I can assure that I have a lot more important things in my life. 

P.S. You were just boasting about your street cred yourself, which I do find is kind of ironic in a conversation like this one. Are trying to solve problems here or measure our street cred? (or something else?)

Anyways, I can be snarky and aggressive myself. I'm not a particularly calm person and I totally don't tolerate when people try to pin their crazy unsubstantiated claims on me. I'll urge once again to abstain from personal attacks if you expect me to take you seriously. 

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:07 PM, João Távora wrote:
> "Bozhidar Batsov" <bozhidar@batsov.dev> writes:
> 
> > And I'm astonished how you can't take "no" as an answer. Once someone
> > makes the case for serious benefits of including something in
> > ELPA/core we'd strongly consider this, but everything that was
> > discussed so far is just extremely subjective.
> 
> Danny has already said he would revisit the matter, so I wouldn't speak
> for him.  Of course, if the answer is still no, then something else will
> eventually come into Emacs.
> 
> As far as I could see, Danny's clojure-ts-mode at the moment is little
> more than a basic Lisp editing mode build on top of tree sitter.  Not
> much more than what Philip suggested earlier and I implemented.  Namely
> it's got no CIDER integration.  At a certain point, someone will have to
> make changes to CIDER to support it as well, so it's a good oppornity to
> decouple things and that will be good for whatever Clojure mode in Emacs
> 
> If integrating a new major mode with CIDER is so difficult, don't fret
> about it.  You don't have to help if you don't want to.  I have decent
> past experience of dealing with such RPC-based systems (SLIME SLY and
> Eglot) and they're really not as transcendental as you make them sound.
> In the horizon there are other things such as DAP (Debugger Adapter
> Protocol) that Emacs will probably want to support in the future.
> 
> And no, I don't have to be A Bozhidar-Certified Clojure Programmer to
> want to help out, just as I don't speak 90% of the languages Eglot
> supports, for example and I still try them out for time to time.
> 
> If I went by instinct or "the gist" of what you seem to be saying I'd
> say it really sounds like you want to avoid a new Clojure mode in Emacs
> at all costs.  But look, no one is coming for your life's work, really,
> noone is trying to beat you, best you or take away your Clojure street
> cred that you keep boasting about.  So cool down and enjoy your holiday.
> 
> João
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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