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* Re: Org mode and Emacs
@ 2022-09-25  2:52 Payas Relekar
  2022-09-25  6:35 ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 211+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-09-25  2:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel


Hi Bastien,

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Here is the email I sent when I accepted to switch to using .org as
> the native format for Org documentation:
>
> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87371gfas7.fsf@bzg.fr/
>
> As you can read, I wanted to make the switch as an experiment to see
> if we were really solving a problem here.
>
> I believe we didn't get more contributions to the manual by switching
> to .org, so I'd be in favor of switching back to using .texi as the
> native format for Org's documentation.  (Not for 9.6, obviously, more
> probably for 10.0 -- I'll discuss this with other Org maintainers.)

From your mail, below were the motivators for change:

- Let's stabilize editing standards around the org.org file.

- Let's test org capabilities against a giant .org file.

- Let's make `C-x 4 a' do something useful in an .org section.

- Let's write more non-emacs parsers and exporters.

- Let's see if we have more contributions to the manual and if
  we really solved a problem here.

While you're best to judge the number of contributions, #1 and #2, or
the dogfooding opportunities provided by the switch are immense.

One doesn't occasionally run into org documents the size of org.org. It
has already resulted in gc enhancements as it was slowing down Emacs
build and was optimized. I'll say that alone is a benefit worth keeping.

There is also more progress being made on non-emacs parsers[0][1], and
perhaps we can reach out if they find org.org useful. Generally
speaking, these projects are even smaller (number of contributors-wise)
than org-mode, but a shared burden is always nicer.

[0]: https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode
[1]: https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources/org.ebnf

> The other topics in this thread (make Org's Texinfo exporter provide
> good .texi manuals, make Org more modular, etc.) are interesting, but
> they are really separate questions IMHO.

Thanks,
Payas
--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 211+ messages in thread
* Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package)
@ 2022-06-13  1:47 Christopher Dimech
  2022-06-13  2:47 ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 211+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Dimech @ 2022-06-13  1:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Tim Cross, rms, eliz, monnier, acm, emacs-devel



> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2022 at 12:39 PM
> From: "Ihor Radchenko" <yantar92@gmail.com>
> To: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package)
>
> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > There are many ways org mode can be improved. Current work to clarify
> > and refine the syntax, provide a solid and efficient parser, improved
> > font-locking and formatting and more consistent and rich API for both
> > extensions and new export backends are far more critical than adding
> > additional markup/markdown syntax to enable org mode to replace texinfo.
> > IMO such changes are not only misguided, they have the real potential to
> > adversely impact org by making things more complicated and harder to
> > maintain, destroying the advantage of a very small and easy to use
> > markup and moving the focus towards becoming an authoring tool rather
> > than a personal data organisation aid.
>
> Tim, I afraid that we a slipping to overgeneralisation again.
> We may or may not need to make changes to Org syntax for the purpose of
> writing documentation using Org.
>
> Can someone please prepare a small example texi file containing examples
> of various texi features that are commonly needed and possibly also
> demonstrating some concrete instances of problems that exist in texinfo?

Does org accept latex structures?  Because texinfo is just plain tex, and as
consequence remained limited (e.g. no colouring, no bold mathematical expressions'
no boxes for formal end of proof).

> If we have such an example and know the expected outputs, someone can
> then create an equivalent Org file. Then, the discussion will hopefuly
> become more constructive.
>
> Best,
> Ihor
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 211+ messages in thread
* Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package
@ 2022-06-04 17:27 Alan Mackenzie
  2022-06-05  8:38 ` Michael Albinus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 211+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2022-06-04 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Tassilo Horn, Akib Azmain Turja, Emacs developers

Hello, Stefan.

On Sat, Jun 04, 2022 at 18:09:45 +0200, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> > No, no, no, no!  Org mode is a highly complicated, obscure mode which
> > is NOT part of core Emacs, and mustn't become so.

> AFAICT, Org-mode has been distributed with Emacs for more than five
> major releases by now (approx. 15 years).

That's a strawman.  Org mode is not part of the Emacs core.  It's not
something in the part of Emacs inevitably used by any normal proficient
user.  Neither is Gnus.  Neither is CC Mode, for that matter.  By
contrast *Help*, Info, font-lock, the package manager, a lot of other
things, and a vast selection of commands bound to keys in the global key
map, are the core.

> > Surely the solution has got to be to encourage package authors to
> > write plain text (or .texi) documentation, by pointing out the
> > difficulties the non-standard .org format creates.

> In the Emacs community, Org-mode is ubiquitous.

Only in the sense that it's distributed with each Emacs release.

> I think we should actively encourage using it for most types of
> documentation, certainly for README type files.

I disagree entirely with you.  Org mode is highly complicated, obscure
(I've never managed to get a feel for what it does), and difficult to
learn (I've never managed it).  A text file is far easier to read for
those not familiar with org.  We're talking about READMEs here.  They're
typically 20 to 100 lines long.  A text file is ideal for these.

> Texinfo has its strengths of course, but it is unfortunately perceived
> as arcane and hard to use by many.

It's moderately easy to use, somewhat difficult to learn.

> And Org-mode can be converted to be read in 'M-x info'.

You mean it _has_ to be converted to be read?

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 211+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2023-09-10  0:22 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 211+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-09-25  2:52 Org mode and Emacs Payas Relekar
2022-09-25  6:35 ` Bastien
2022-09-25  7:05   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-25  7:47     ` Bastien
2022-09-25  8:01       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-25  8:22       ` Bastien Guerry
2022-09-25  8:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-09-25 19:47     ` Tim Cross
2022-09-26  6:12       ` Bastien
2022-09-26  6:35         ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-26  6:57           ` Bastien
2023-08-18 17:09             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-18 18:31               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-18 18:49                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-18 19:11                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-18 19:31                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19  5:51                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-19  9:04                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19  9:26                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-19  9:44                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 10:19                               ` Po Lu
2023-08-19 10:47                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-19 10:48                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 10:42                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-19 10:54                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  1:12                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-21  7:56                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-08-23  2:12                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-23  9:44                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-23 11:01                       ` Colin Baxter
2023-08-23 11:12                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-23 12:49                           ` Po Lu
2023-08-23 17:18                             ` Colin Baxter
2023-08-23 17:47                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-23 18:02                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 18:08                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-23 18:18                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 18:36                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-23 18:46                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 18:50                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25  1:11                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-23 16:53                           ` Colin Baxter
2023-08-23 17:56                             ` Tassilo Horn
2023-08-24 11:52                     ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-24 17:51                       ` T.V Raman
2023-08-24 17:55                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 18:35                           ` T.V Raman
2023-08-25  1:16                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-25 11:45                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-25  1:14                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-25  9:04                         ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-25 18:56                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-08-26 10:46                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-31  2:09                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31  8:50                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26  2:04                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26  5:50                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 16:49                               ` Jose E. Marchesi
2023-08-26 16:56                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 20:28                                   ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-08-26 20:58                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-30  8:11                                       ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-27  1:32                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-27  8:32                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28  1:32                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-29  8:29                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-01  1:18                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01  6:46                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-04  1:32                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04 22:05                                                 ` Juergen Fenn
2023-09-05 11:04                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06  0:58                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06 11:29                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06 12:33                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-06 12:43                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06 12:49                                                       ` Po Lu
2023-09-06 12:54                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06 13:04                                                           ` Po Lu
2023-09-06 13:10                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06 13:33                                                               ` Po Lu
2023-09-06 15:28                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-06 13:08                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-06 13:20                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06 15:25                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-06 16:12                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-06 16:34                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07 11:11                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-10  0:22                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  0:37                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  9:36                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-10  0:22                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  0:38                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-30  8:11                                   ` Bastien Guerry
2023-09-02  1:50                                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-02  8:19                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-02  8:30                                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27  1:32                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-27  8:35                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28  1:32                                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28 10:04                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 11:15                                         ` Yuri Khan
2023-08-28 11:21                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-31  2:09                                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31  8:53                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-04  1:33                                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-30  8:14                                   ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-30  8:32                                     ` Po Lu
2023-08-27  1:33                               ` Richard Stallman
2022-09-26  8:24           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-09-26  8:32           ` Jean Louis
2022-09-26  9:54             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-26 11:04               ` Robert Pluim
2022-09-27 16:17               ` Richard Stallman
2022-09-30  3:41                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-26 12:10       ` Richard Stallman
2022-09-30  3:31         ` [HELP] Fwd: Org format as a new standard source format for GNU manuals Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-30  3:49           ` Samuel Wales
2022-09-30  5:47           ` Thomas S. Dye
2022-09-30  8:25           ` Christopher M. Miles
2022-09-30 12:49           ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-01  3:30             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-01 10:42               ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-01 11:01                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-01 11:27                   ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-02  4:59                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-02 10:38                       ` Fraga, Eric
2022-10-02 13:02                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-02 13:21                           ` Fraga, Eric
2022-10-02 13:47                           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-03  4:23                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-04 20:28                               ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-05  6:56                                 ` Rick Lupton
2022-10-06  3:39                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-02 16:28                       ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-03  4:36                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-04 16:32                           ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-06  5:55                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-30 20:36           ` Tim Cross
2022-10-01  4:08             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-01  8:01               ` Tim Cross
2022-10-01 15:08               ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-03  4:19                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-07 22:48           ` Richard Stallman
2022-10-08  6:52             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-08 22:34               ` Richard Stallman
2022-10-11  3:03                 ` Robert Weiner
2022-10-11 12:16                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-12 22:00                   ` Richard Stallman
2022-09-26  3:02   ` Org mode and Emacs Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-26  5:37     ` Po Lu
2022-09-26  5:44       ` Emanuel Berg
2022-09-26  6:20       ` Bastien Guerry
2022-09-26 13:58         ` T.V Raman
2022-09-26 16:16           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-09-26  6:36       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-26  6:18     ` Bastien
2022-09-26  6:29       ` Ihor Radchenko
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-06-13  1:47 Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Christopher Dimech
2022-06-13  2:47 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-13  5:04   ` Christopher Dimech
2022-06-13  5:22     ` Org mode and Emacs Werner LEMBERG
2022-06-13  5:59       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-04 17:27 Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Alan Mackenzie
2022-06-05  8:38 ` Michael Albinus
2022-06-05  8:51   ` Po Lu
2022-06-05 10:26     ` Tassilo Horn
2022-06-05 11:15       ` Michael Albinus
2022-06-06  0:19         ` Tim Cross
2022-06-06 11:33           ` Alan Mackenzie
2022-06-06 13:57             ` Tim Cross
2022-06-06 16:02               ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-07  6:14                 ` Tim Cross
2022-06-07 16:02                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2022-06-07 18:14                     ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Stefan Monnier
2022-06-07 18:26                       ` Org mode and Emacs Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-06-07 18:48                         ` Stefan Monnier
2022-06-07 18:54                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-07 19:38                             ` Stefan Monnier
2022-06-07 20:54                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-06-07 22:10                       ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Tim Cross
2022-06-08  6:06                         ` Org mode and Emacs Visuwesh
2022-06-08  6:58                           ` Tim Cross
2022-06-09 22:31                         ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Richard Stallman
2022-06-09 23:10                           ` Tim Cross
2022-06-10  5:59                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-10  6:20                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-10  6:44                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-11  4:49                                   ` Tim Cross
2022-06-11  6:58                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-12  9:05                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12  9:18                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-12 10:04                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12 10:15                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-12 10:38                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12 14:36                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-12 15:31                                                   ` Org mode and Emacs Colin Baxter
2022-06-15  5:19                                                   ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-15  6:46                                                     ` Org mode and Emacs David Engster
2022-06-15  7:36                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-15 13:01                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-16  5:36                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-16  5:58                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-16  9:55                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-15 13:34                                                         ` David Engster
2022-06-16  6:50                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-16 10:21                                                             ` David Engster
2022-06-15 12:50                                                     ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-16  7:03                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-16  8:13                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-16 11:12                                                           ` Mattias Engdegård
2022-06-16 12:58                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-16 16:59                                                               ` Org mode and Emacs Stefan Monnier
2022-06-16  3:19                                                     ` Pankaj Jangid
2022-06-16  4:03                                                       ` Visuwesh
2022-09-25  2:14                                                   ` Bastien
2022-06-12 22:38                                       ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Richard Stallman
2022-06-13  4:38                                         ` Org mode and Emacs Werner LEMBERG
2022-06-12  0:42                                     ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Richard Stallman
2022-06-12  1:27                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12 22:38                                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-06-14 13:18                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-14 13:38                                             ` Org mode and Emacs Robert Pluim
2022-06-12  0:42                             ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Richard Stallman
2022-06-12  1:39                               ` Tim Cross
2022-06-12  2:40                                 ` Org mode and Emacs T.V Raman
2022-06-12  1:45                               ` Po Lu
2022-06-12  2:15                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12  2:36                                   ` David Masterson
2022-06-12  3:06                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12  3:39                                       ` David Masterson
2022-06-12  4:43                                         ` Tim Cross
2022-06-12  5:08                                           ` Po Lu
2022-06-12  5:20                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12  5:27                                             ` Tim Cross
2022-06-12  5:53                                           ` David Masterson
2022-06-12  6:56                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12 18:29                                               ` David Masterson
2022-06-14  5:09                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-19 23:48                                                   ` David Masterson
2022-06-20  0:03                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-20  0:24                                                       ` David Masterson
2022-06-12  3:28                                     ` Tim Cross
2022-06-12  2:50                                   ` Po Lu
2022-06-12  3:54                                     ` chad
2022-06-12  5:04                                       ` Po Lu
2022-06-12  7:02                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12 22:38                                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-06-12 22:38                                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-06-12  6:21                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-12  6:57                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-08 13:22                       ` Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-08 14:23                         ` Org mode and Emacs Stefan Monnier
2022-06-08 15:08                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-06-12 22:38                           ` Richard Stallman

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