Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 11/11/2015 05:43 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>> These considerations will become valid only when we have enough
>>> developers paying attention to bugs that are reported.  (That includes
>>> you, Stephen, btw.)
>
> (Upon re-reading, I apologize for being so blunt.  It just feels too
> lonely there, at times.)

I think a significant part of that problem is self-imposed.

Personally, I try to pay attention to bugs that are related to code that 
I at least have touched at some point, or bugs that affect me directly, 
but it seems there aren't too many of those. And I don't think it's 
reasonable to expect much more of any contributor.

Over time, we've put a lot of conditions on Emacs development. There's a 
lot of code in the core, some of which is used by only marginal 
fractions of our users and has no one personally responsible for it. Yet 
we feel obliged to keep it in Emacs, because backward compatibility and 
careful deprecation policy. Even though we're lacking in developers.

Our bug tracker is peculiar, and on its own turns many less experienced 
users away. Users that could participate in triaging bugs, at least, if 
not writing patches. Maybe trying out submitted patches, too.

Yet over several discussions that happened in the past, it was decided 
to keep it, because the ability to interact with the bug tracker via 
email (and some other advantages, though I'm not sure which ones) has 
been deemed more valuable than a functional HTML-based interface that 
allows one to manage bugs in the browser, leave comments, etc, which is 
expected by most users these days.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports,

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> Personally, I try to pay attention to bugs that are related to code that I
> at least have touched at some point, or bugs that affect me directly, but it
> seems there aren't too many of those. And I don't think it's reasonable to
> expect much more of any contributor.

I, at least, don't expect anything more than that from contributors.

> Over time, we've put a lot of conditions on Emacs development. There's a lot
> of code in the core, some of which is used by only marginal fractions of our
> users and has no one personally responsible for it. Yet we feel obliged to
> keep it in Emacs, because backward compatibility and careful deprecation
> policy. Even though we're lacking in developers.

The upcoming clarifications on ELPA policy may well lead to reducing the
surface area of primary Emacs development. This will serve to focus the bug
load of what is "core", although we'll still be maintaining some of the ELPA
packages that don't have their own dedicated maintainers.

> Our bug tracker is peculiar, and on its own turns many less experienced
> users away. Users that could participate in triaging bugs, at least, if not
> writing patches. Maybe trying out submitted patches, too.

I very muchq agree with this. I have used many, _many_ bug trackers in the
past, but I'm finding that debbugs is inhibiting my ability to interact
conveniently with our bug database. It's hard to search for what I'm looking
for, it's hard to navigate the bug tracker from within Emacs (is it just me,
or is debbugs.el kind of terrible?), and unless I'm missing something, I can't
edit a bug after I've found it through the web interface: I have to go to my
mail reader in order to make changes to the bug via e-mail.

It could also be that I just haven't discovered all of the tricks that Eli
might know. Is there any documentation I should be reading beyond what's on
the GNU bug tracker page?

John

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports,

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 11/11/2015 10:50 PM, John Wiegley wrote:

> The upcoming clarifications on ELPA policy may well lead to reducing the
> surface area of primary Emacs development. This will serve to focus the bug
> load of what is "core", although we'll still be maintaining some of the ELPA
> packages that don't have their own dedicated maintainers.

Still, though, the bug reports for ELPA packages that don't have any 
other upstream are supposed to go into the Emacs bug tracker anyway.

It's not like upon moving a package to ELPA, we can immediately declare 
it obsolete. Right?

> I very much agree with this. I have used many, _many_ bug trackers in the
> past, but I'm finding that debbugs is inhibiting my ability to interact
> conveniently with our bug database. It's hard to search for what I'm looking

It's also slooow.

> for, it's hard to navigate the bug tracker from within Emacs (is it just me,
> or is debbugs.el kind of terrible?),

No comments.

> and unless I'm missing something, I can't
> edit a bug after I've found it through the web interface: I have to go to my
> mail reader in order to make changes to the bug via e-mail.

It has an email interface, and a SOAP interface (sigh).

> It could also be that I just haven't discovered all of the tricks that Eli
> might know. Is there any documentation I should be reading beyond what's on
> the GNU bug tracker page?

debbugs.el has a feature like sending control messages to the bug 
tracker, which allows to close/unclose/merge bugs, etc. I've been able 
to do something useful with it once or twice.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports,

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> Still, though, the bug reports for ELPA packages that don't have any other
> upstream are supposed to go into the Emacs bug tracker anyway.

> It's not like upon moving a package to ELPA, we can immediately declare it
> obsolete. Right?

This is true. At least it will get a tag so that we know it's in ELPA. ELPA
packages have the advantage of being able to deliver bug fixes post-release
very easily. Anything that's in core has a much longer delay, and so is more
important to fix sooner for that reason.

John

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, john@yates-sheets.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:39:25 +0200
> 
> On 11/11/2015 05:43 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> >>> These considerations will become valid only when we have enough
> >>> developers paying attention to bugs that are reported.  (That includes
> >>> you, Stephen, btw.)
> >
> > (Upon re-reading, I apologize for being so blunt.  It just feels too
> > lonely there, at times.)
> 
> I think a significant part of that problem is self-imposed.

Not sure I understand what you mean by that.  Self-imposed by me?

> Personally, I try to pay attention to bugs that are related to code that 
> I at least have touched at some point, or bugs that affect me directly, 
> but it seems there aren't too many of those. And I don't think it's 
> reasonable to expect much more of any contributor.

I disagree.  IME, frequently just looking or stepping through
unfamiliar code can reveal bugs whose reasons we can easily understand
and fix.  Just a few minutes ago I had this experience once more, see
bug#21881.  I assure you I knew nothing at all about mm-url.el, and
still don't.  Still, it took me just a few minutes to understand why
EWW barfs and see the solution that I'm sure is right.

You should try this some time.  I think everybody here should.

Worst that could happen is that you will only be able to add some
non-trivial information to the bug report, based on what you saw,
without actually finding a solution.  But even that alone could allow
someone else to suggest a solution.  That, too, have happened to me.

Bottom line is: people like you and me (and many others here) know
quite a lot about Emacs and about debugging, and can find solutions to
many bugs even in unfamiliar code.

> Our bug tracker is peculiar, and on its own turns many less experienced 
> users away. Users that could participate in triaging bugs, at least, if 
> not writing patches. Maybe trying out submitted patches, too.

Yes, triage would help as well.

As for the bug tracker, I don't see how it could have such a
detrimental effect on potential contributors.  It's just a mailing
list, not unlike this one.  In addition, we have an Emacs package that
interacts with the tracker, so one could work with bugs without ever
looking at either the Web forms or the email messages.

I'm not saying there's no place for improvements, but I cannot imagine
that the reason for such a small number of people who work on bugs is
the bug tracker.  I think it's more likely the fear of diving into
unfamiliar code.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports,

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org>,  emacs-tangents@gnu.org,  john@yates-sheets.org, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:50:53 -0800
> 
> It could also be that I just haven't discovered all of the tricks that Eli
> might know. Is there any documentation I should be reading beyond what's on
> the GNU bug tracker page?

I don't have any tricks.  I'm subscribed to the bug mailing list and
read each and every bug report.  If it's something I decide to look
into, I leave the mail in my inbox and get to that when I have time.
That's all.

Taking care of a bug, for me, could be as simple as reproducing it (or
not) and posting the results, or it could be a request for the OP to
try something and report back, or it could be a full-fledged debug
session.

Either way, all I need from the tracker is the data about the bug.
Whatever debbugs does, it cannot screw that up.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports,

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> In addition, we have an Emacs package that interacts with the tracker, so
> one could work with bugs without ever looking at either the Web forms or the
> email messages.

How do you use debbugs.el to query for the bugs you look at each day, Eli?

John

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 11/11/2015 11:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> I think a significant part of that problem is self-imposed.
>
> Not sure I understand what you mean by that.  Self-imposed by me?

By the Emacs developers, collectively, over time. I don't know who's 
responsible for each issue in particular.

> I disagree.  IME, frequently just looking or stepping through
> unfamiliar code can reveal bugs whose reasons we can easily understand
> and fix.  Just a few minutes ago I had this experience once more, see
> bug#21881.  I assure you I knew nothing at all about mm-url.el, and
> still don't.  Still, it took me just a few minutes to understand why
> EWW barfs and see the solution that I'm sure is right.

I'm not saying I couldn't do that, but there's a limit to the number of 
areas I want to be familiar with. I also have limited of time and other 
projects, starving for attention.

I'm also currently exhausted by trying to explain the difference between 
"project" and "libraries", to some people, over a zillion email messages.

> You should try this some time.  I think everybody here should.

The above is the primary method I do get acquainted with new code.

> Bottom line is: people like you and me (and many others here) know
> quite a lot about Emacs and about debugging, and can find solutions to
> many bugs even in unfamiliar code.

Been there, done that. Especially in third-party code, where it's much 
easier to discuss the issues, explore the code, etc, everything without 
closing the browser.

> As for the bug tracker, I don't see how it could have such a
> detrimental effect on potential contributors.  It's just a mailing
> list, not unlike this one.

"Just a mailing list" is already a big barrier. First, most users are 
unaccustomed to dealing with mailing lists. Second, many that are, still 
expect a bug tracker to be something more.

> I'm not saying there's no place for improvements, but I cannot imagine
> that the reason for such a small number of people who work on bugs is
> the bug tracker.  I think it's more likely the fear of diving into
> unfamiliar code.

How do you explain the low number of users triaging the bugs?

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports,

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,  emacs-tangents@gnu.org,  stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org,  john@yates-sheets.org
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:15:22 -0800
> 
> How do you use debbugs.el to query for the bugs you look at each day, Eli?

I don't use debbugs.el.  I just mentioned it for the benefit of those
who might prefer it to the email and Web interfaces.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org,
>  john@yates-sheets.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:23:45 +0200
> 
> > I'm not saying there's no place for improvements, but I cannot imagine
> > that the reason for such a small number of people who work on bugs is
> > the bug tracker.  I think it's more likely the fear of diving into
> > unfamiliar code.
> 
> How do you explain the low number of users triaging the bugs?

I just tried to do that, above: I think it's a kind of fear.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 11/11/2015 11:30 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> How do you explain the low number of users triaging the bugs?
>
> I just tried to do that, above: I think it's a kind of fear.

But you don't have to dive into the code, just to triage a bug.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:23:45 +0200
> Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org,
> 	john@yates-sheets.org
> 
> > I disagree.  IME, frequently just looking or stepping through
> > unfamiliar code can reveal bugs whose reasons we can easily understand
> > and fix.  Just a few minutes ago I had this experience once more, see
> > bug#21881.  I assure you I knew nothing at all about mm-url.el, and
> > still don't.  Still, it took me just a few minutes to understand why
> > EWW barfs and see the solution that I'm sure is right.
> 
> I'm not saying I couldn't do that, but there's a limit to the number of 
> areas I want to be familiar with. I also have limited of time and other 
> projects, starving for attention.
> 
> I'm also currently exhausted by trying to explain the difference between 
> "project" and "libraries", to some people, over a zillion email messages.
> 
> > You should try this some time.  I think everybody here should.
> 
> The above is the primary method I do get acquainted with new code.
> 
> > Bottom line is: people like you and me (and many others here) know
> > quite a lot about Emacs and about debugging, and can find solutions to
> > many bugs even in unfamiliar code.
> 
> Been there, done that. Especially in third-party code, where it's much 
> easier to discuss the issues, explore the code, etc, everything without 
> closing the browser.

Then it sounds like you agree with me, and we both are doing about the
bugs whatever we can, given our free resources.  Thanks, and please
keep up.

Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 11/11/2015 11:42 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Then it sounds like you agree with me, and we both are doing about the
> bugs whatever we can, given our free resources.  Thanks, and please
> keep up.

With many of your points, yes. And thank you too.