SASL related files in gnus/

SASL related files in gnus/

[Daiki Ueno]

2007/10/29, Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc>:
> There are some other non-Gnus specific files which should probably be
> moved from lisp/gnus/ to other directories. [1]
>
> I'll provide a list of new files with some comments.
>
> * hmac-def.el: From FLIM (Faithful Library about Internet Message).
>   Used for sasl-*.el.
> * hmac-md5.el: Ditto.
> * md4.el: Ditto.
> * ntlm.el: Ditto.
>
> hmac-def.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
> hmac-md5.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
> md4.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>
> ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>
>
> * sasl.el: Simple Authentication and Security Layer.  From FLIM [1].
> * sasl-cram.el:
> * sasl-digest.el:
> * sasl-ntlm.el:
>
> sasl-cram.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
> sasl-digest.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
> sasl.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
> sasl-ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

I think these files should be moved outside of gnus.  I'm sure that
they have been mature for years and do not depend on other components
of Gnus.

I know that they have been used by jabber.el
(http://emacs-jabber.sourceforge.net).

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    > hmac-def.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
    > hmac-md5.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
    > md4.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>
    > ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    > sasl-cram.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
    > sasl-digest.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
    > sasl.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
    > sasl-ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    I think these files should be moved outside of gnus.  I'm sure that
    they have been mature for years and do not depend on other components
    of Gnus.

Ok let's think about it.
What does each of these packages do?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

[I sent this message a week ago but did not get a response.
Could we get the discussion moving again?]

    > hmac-def.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
    > hmac-md5.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
    > md4.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>
    > ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    > sasl-cram.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
    > sasl-digest.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
    > sasl.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>
    > sasl-ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    I think these files should be moved outside of gnus.  I'm sure that
    they have been mature for years and do not depend on other components
    of Gnus.

Ok let's think about it.
What does each of these packages do?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Daiki Ueno]

2007/11/12, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>:

>     I think these files should be moved outside of gnus.  I'm sure that
>     they have been mature for years and do not depend on other components
>     of Gnus.
>
> Ok let's think about it.
> What does each of these packages do?

Since there are several layers, I reordered these packages in
top-to-bottom order.

[SASL related packages]

SASL (Simple Authentication and Security Layer, RFC2222) is an
abstraction of "challenge and response" authentication mechanisms.  It
provides a simple method for adding authentication support to various
application protocols such as IMAP, SMTP, POP3, Jabber, etc.

>     > sasl.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>

This is the top-level interface which allow elisp programs to use SASL.

>     > sasl-cram.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>

This adds the CRAM-MD5 authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

>     > sasl-digest.el:;; Author: Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org>

This adds the DIGEST-MD5 authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

>     > sasl-ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

This adds the NTLM authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

[HMAC related packages]

HMAC (RFC2104) is MAC (message authentication code) mechanism based on
cryptographic hash functions such as MD5, SHA1, etc.  MAC provides a
way to check the integrity of information transmitted over or stored
in an unreliable medium using a secret-key. HMAC is also used by some
SASL authentication mechanisms.

>     > hmac-md5.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>

This provides the HMAC-MD5 function which is based on the MD5 hash function.

>     > hmac-def.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>

This provides a macro to define new HMAC functions based on other
cryptographic hash functions.

[Other packages]

>     > ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

This provides the raw NTLM authentication mechanism, which is used by
sasl-ntlm.el.

>     > md4.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

This provides the MD4 hash function, which is used by ntlm.el.

BTW, I noticed that a couple of files are missing in gnus.  The
original sasl*.el and hmac*.el distribution contains the following 2
files:

sasl-scram.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>

  This adds the SCRAM-MD5 authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

hmac-sha1.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>

  This provides the HMAC-SHA1 function which is based on the SHA1 hash function.

Found at
http://cvs.m17n.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/root/flim/Attic/sasl-scram.el?rev=1.1.4.2
http://cvs.m17n.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/root/flim/Attic/hmac-sha1.el?rev=1.1.6.4

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Simon Josefsson]

I think we should add these files, SASL is a standard and this
implementation of it is good.  Just a comment:

"Daiki Ueno" <ueno@unixuser.org> writes:

> BTW, I noticed that a couple of files are missing in gnus.  The
> original sasl*.el and hmac*.el distribution contains the following 2
> files:
>
> sasl-scram.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
>
>   This adds the SCRAM-MD5 authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

I don't think this should be added to Emacs or Gnus.  It is a
non-standard SASL mechanism and few if any servers supports it.

> hmac-sha1.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
>
>   This provides the HMAC-SHA1 function which is based on the SHA1 hash function.

This file is generally useful, but it is not needed by the SASL stuff.
I think it should be added.

/Simon

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    I think we should add these files, SASL is a standard and this
    implementation of it is good.

The question is, do they belong in Gnus or outside Gnus?

What is SASL?  What does it do?  What job do these files do?  Is it a
job specifically related to news or mail?

Could this feature work with Rmail or Mail mode?
Could these files work with Rmail mode or Mail mode?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:10:37 -0500, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> said: 

> What is SASL?  What does it do?  What job do these files do?  Is it a
> job specifically related to news or mail?

        SASL stands for Simple Authentication and Security Layer. It s a
 framework for authentication and data security in Internet
 protocols. It decouples authentication mechanisms from application
 protocols, in theory allowing any authentication mechanism supported by
 SASL to be used in any application protocol that uses SASL.

        The SASL specification is in RFC 4422 (which supercedes RFC
 2222). SASL is an IETF Standard Track protocol, presently a Proposed
 Standard. 

	GNU SASL is a free and portable SASL command line utility and
 library, distributed under the GNU GPLv3 and LGPLv2.1, respectively.
 http://josefsson.org/gsasl/

> Could this feature work with Rmail or Mail mode?  Could these files
> work with Rmail mode or Mail mode?

        I see no fundamental obstacles to use there either. SASL is used
 to communicate to the SMTP and IMAP servers to authenticate the user,
 so one should be able to graft it on to any news/mail user agent in
 emacs.

        manoj
-- 
No spitting on the Bus! Thank you, The Mgt.
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> <http://www.golden-gryphon.com/>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    > Could this feature work with Rmail or Mail mode?  Could these files
    > work with Rmail mode or Mail mode?

	    I see no fundamental obstacles to use there either. SASL is used
     to communicate to the SMTP and IMAP servers to authenticate the user,
     so one should be able to graft it on to any news/mail user agent in
     emacs.

Thanks for the explanation.

Are the current gnus/sasl*.el files written specifically for Gnus,
or would they be good for anything in Emacs that wants to use SASL?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Daiki Ueno]

2007/11/14, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>:
> Are the current gnus/sasl*.el files written specifically for Gnus,

It seems not.  gnus/sasl*.el and the original sasl*.el (written for
FLIM, a general purpose library for internet messages) are identical
except arch-tags.

> or would they be good for anything in Emacs that wants to use SASL?

For example, smtpmail.el, which currently supports only three
authentication methods (i.e. CRAM-MD5, PLAIN, and LOGIN), will benefit
from adopting sasl.el which brings support for other authentication
methods.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Simon Josefsson]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     I think we should add these files, SASL is a standard and this
>     implementation of it is good.
>
> The question is, do they belong in Gnus or outside Gnus?
>
> What is SASL?  What does it do?  What job do these files do?  Is it a
> job specifically related to news or mail?
>
> Could this feature work with Rmail or Mail mode?
> Could these files work with Rmail mode or Mail mode?

Manoj answered most of those questions, but let me add: SASL is mostly
used by mail (both SMTP and IMAP), but is supported by many other
protocols such as LDAP, ManageSieve and (I believe) even NNTP.  In
Emacs, as far as I remember, it is only used by imap.el (which is not
Gnus-specific), and sieve-manage.el (also not Gnus-specific).

smtpmail.el contains a simplistic SASL implementation, that only
supports CRAM-MD5, LOGIN and PLAIN.  Ideally, smtpmail.el should be
modified to use sasl.el, to avoid duplicating code, but it is not a high
priority.

I don't think SASL is related to what Rmail or Mail does, SASL is only
used by packages that speak network protocols and need authentication
services.

/Simon

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

      In
    Emacs, as far as I remember, it is only used by imap.el (which is not
    Gnus-specific), and sieve-manage.el (also not Gnus-specific).

What does imap.el do?  At present it is in `lisp/gnus'; is that a
mistake?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

I think we should move the sasl*.el files into a different directory.
`lisp/net' seems right.  Can you do that?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Simon Josefsson]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>       In
>     Emacs, as far as I remember, it is only used by imap.el (which is not
>     Gnus-specific), and sieve-manage.el (also not Gnus-specific).
>
> What does imap.el do?  At present it is in `lisp/gnus'; is that a
> mistake?

Yes, I think imap.el should be moved to lisp/net/.  I am not aware of
any other packages inside Emacs that uses imap.el, but I think I recall
seeing some external elisp packages that used it, and those were
unrelated to Gnus.  In any case, while imap.el is used by Gnus, it
doesn't belong in lisp/gnus/.

/Simon

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    Yes, I think imap.el should be moved to lisp/net/.

Any arguments against?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    >     > sasl-ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    This adds the NTLM authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

What is the NTLM authentication mechanism?
What job does it do?

    >     > ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    This provides the raw NTLM authentication mechanism, which is used by
    sasl-ntlm.el.

We should probably move ntlm.el to lisp/net, but before deciding that
I'd like to know more about NTLM.

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    >     > md4.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

    This provides the MD4 hash function, which is used by ntlm.el.

That clearly belongs outside Gnus.  Would someone please move it to
`lisp', then ack?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

    >     > hmac-md5.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>

    This provides the HMAC-MD5 function which is based on the MD5 hash function.

    >     > hmac-def.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>

    This provides a macro to define new HMAC functions based on other
    cryptographic hash functions.

These should be moved to `lisp/net' just like sasl*.el.
Would someone please do that, then ack?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Russ Allbery]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     >     > sasl-ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

>     This adds the NTLM authentication mechanism to sasl.el.

> What is the NTLM authentication mechanism?
> What job does it do?

>     >     > ntlm.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>

>     This provides the raw NTLM authentication mechanism, which is used by
>     sasl-ntlm.el.

> We should probably move ntlm.el to lisp/net, but before deciding that
> I'd like to know more about NTLM.

NTLM (NT LAN Manager) is a password hash authentication protocol created
by Microsoft and used primarily by Windows systems.  It is being phased
out by Microsoft now in favor of Kerberos, but is still used where there
is no Active Directory infrastructure or for backward compatibility with
older systems.  It's primarily used for SMB, but Microsoft supports it for
a variety of protocols, including e-mail (which is, I presume, where it
came in useful for Gnus).

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

Thanks for the explanation.

Would someone please move ntlm.el into `lisp/net',
then ack?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Simon Josefsson]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> There were no objections to moving imap.el to lisp/net/.
> Would someone please do it and ack?

Done.

/Simon

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

>     >     > md4.el:;; Author: Taro Kawagishi <tarok@transpulse.org>
>
>     This provides the MD4 hash function, which is used by ntlm.el.
>
> That clearly belongs outside Gnus.  Would someone please move it to
> `lisp', then ack?

ack.

For future reference, you just remove it from the old location, and
add it in the new (via cvs add, cvs commit).

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

>     >     > hmac-md5.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
[...]
>     >     > hmac-def.el:;; Author: Shuhei KOBAYASHI <shuhei@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
[...]
> These should be moved to `lisp/net' just like sasl*.el.
> Would someone please do that, then ack?

ack

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> Would someone please move ntlm.el into `lisp/net', then ack?

ack

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Richard Stallman]

I think we should move the sasl*.el files into a different directory.
`lisp/net' seems right.  Would someone please do that, then ack?

Re: SASL related files in gnus/

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> I think we should move the sasl*.el files into a different directory.
> `lisp/net' seems right.  Would someone please do that, then ack?

ack