Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[David Kastrup]

After some feedback in the mailing list about that the top node of the
Emacs manual should first list the more important entries, and then a
detailed node list (which actually is exactly what it does), I have
checked the node in the info reader.  Result: the text

    Here are some other nodes which are really inferiors of the ones
    already listed, mentioned here so you can get to them in one step:

     --- The Detailed Node Listing ---

appears without any fontification, highlighting, boldface or other
offsetting, thus being much less conspicuous than the many
_subordinate_ headings before or after.

Just try paging through the node casually and stopping at the point
where the detailed node listing begins.  If you don't miss it on first
try, you have better reactions than I do.

Now the panick-stricken newbie will at one point just start paging
fast to see how much more is to be expected, and will reach the bottom
of the table of contents without realizing that he has perused _both_
a quick overview as well as a detailed node listing.

As a result, he will not read _anything_ because he feels that this is
all too much.

Would it be possible to offset the detailed node listing much more
prominently to avoid that effect?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Luc Teirlinck]

David Kastrup wrote:

       Here are some other nodes which are really inferiors of the ones
       already listed, mentioned here so you can get to them in one step:

	--- The Detailed Node Listing ---

   appears without any fontification, highlighting, boldface or other
   offsetting, thus being much less conspicuous than the many
   _subordinate_ headings before or after.

Apoparently, in reaction to this @section was used.  But one can not
use @section in the middle of a menu.  Just take a look at how the
node looks right now after the detailed listing starts.  It is
completely messed up.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[David Kastrup]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>        Here are some other nodes which are really inferiors of the ones
>        already listed, mentioned here so you can get to them in one step:
>
> 	--- The Detailed Node Listing ---
>
>    appears without any fontification, highlighting, boldface or other
>    offsetting, thus being much less conspicuous than the many
>    _subordinate_ headings before or after.
>
> Apoparently, in reaction to this @section was used.  But one can not
> use @section in the middle of a menu.  Just take a look at how the
> node looks right now after the detailed listing starts.  It is
> completely messed up.

Richard asked me about this in private, and after taking a look at it,
I recommended rather going for @subsection (which is the right size
here) because @section appeared _too_ large.  I did not notice the
messup, but it also appears with @subsection.  Now what?

I don't think there can be more than one menu per node, right?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:49:49 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Richard asked me about this in private, and after taking a look at it,
> I recommended rather going for @subsection (which is the right size
> here) because @section appeared _too_ large.  I did not notice the
> messup, but it also appears with @subsection.  Now what?

I think the only way we have to make that line stand out is to mark it
with some prominent characters, like ########## or some such.

> I don't think there can be more than one menu per node, right?

Right, no more than one menu per node.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Ralf Angeli]

* David Kastrup (2005-03-29) writes:

> Richard asked me about this in private, and after taking a look at it,
> I recommended rather going for @subsection (which is the right size
> here) because @section appeared _too_ large.  I did not notice the
> messup, but it also appears with @subsection.  Now what?

In the current version of the Emacs manual, "Detailed Node Listing"
has the same font size as the other headings in the menus (at least on
my system).

-- 
Ralf

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Luc Teirlinck]

Ralf Angeli wrote:

   In the current version of the Emacs manual, "Detailed Node Listing"
   has the same font size as the other headings in the menus (at least on
   my system).

That is because of a second change Richard checked in yesterday.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Richard Stallman]

    Right, no more than one menu per node.

It is no problem to have multiple @menu commands per node.
Info treats them all as a single menu.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[David Kastrup]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> Ralf Angeli wrote:
>
>    In the current version of the Emacs manual, "Detailed Node
>    Listing" has the same font size as the other headings in the
>    menus (at least on my system).
>
> That is because of a second change Richard checked in yesterday.

I wanted to unleash another round of moping around because "the same
font size as the other headings" would not appear to be a good idea,
given that it actually is a superior level when compared to the
headings in the table of contents.  However, after regenerating Emacs
with the newest sources, it appears that the size seems to match
"subsection" level quite well (thus being larger than the menu
headings), and the menu is not garbled, either.

At least on my system, there is not much except "perfect" to say about
it.  I have not checked HTML and other documentation formats, though.
If Ralf finds that the font size indeed is not larger than that of
other menu headings, perhaps there is some font-related problem?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Luc Teirlinck]

David Kastrup wrote:
   
   However, after regenerating Emacs
   with the newest sources, it appears that the size seems to match
   "subsection" level quite well (thus being larger than the menu
   headings),

It is larger on my system too.  It stands even out more clearly in the
standalone Info reader.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Ralf Angeli]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --]

* David Kastrup (2005-03-30) writes:

> At least on my system, there is not much except "perfect" to say about
> it.  I have not checked HTML and other documentation formats, though.
> If Ralf finds that the font size indeed is not larger than that of
> other menu headings, perhaps there is some font-related problem?

Sigh.  It seems so.  `C-u C-x =' on the "D" of "Detailed Node Listing"
returns, among other things,
`-Adobe-Helvetica-Bold-R-Normal--20-140-100-100-P-105-ISO8859-1'.  On
the "T" of "The Organization of the Screen" it returns
`-Adobe-Helvetica-Bold-R-Normal--18-180-75-75-P-103-ISO8859-1'.
Checked with xfontsel, these fonts are practically indistiguishable on
my system.  See this screenshot:


[-- Attachment #2: headings.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 2060 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 104 bytes --]


On my system the section size would look okay, but it probably is not
really representative.

-- 
Ralf

[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]

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Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Luc Teirlinck]

Ralf Angeli wrote:

   > If Ralf finds that the font size indeed is not larger than that of
   > other menu headings, perhaps there is some font-related problem?

   Sigh.  It seems so.

Too bad that the underlining is made invisible.  Just do 
M-x visible-mode and see how much clearer things become.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> CC: dak@gnu.org, teirllm@dms.auburn.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:20:17 -0500
> 
>     Right, no more than one menu per node.
> 
> It is no problem to have multiple @menu commands per node.
> Info treats them all as a single menu.

I actually checked that, and makeinfo barfed on multiple @menu
commands in a node, but now I see that my test was flawed, and
multiple menus are indeed possible.  Sorry for spreading
misinformation.

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[David Kastrup]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
>> CC: dak@gnu.org, teirllm@dms.auburn.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:20:17 -0500
>> 
>>     Right, no more than one menu per node.
>> 
>> It is no problem to have multiple @menu commands per node.
>> Info treats them all as a single menu.
>
> I actually checked that, and makeinfo barfed on multiple @menu
> commands in a node, but now I see that my test was flawed, and
> multiple menus are indeed possible.  Sorry for spreading
> misinformation.

That's supposed to be my job, isn't it?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Layout of Emacs manual top mode in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:43:34 +0200
> 
> > Sorry for spreading misinformation.
> 
> That's supposed to be my job, isn't it?

Sometimes I get envious.