Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

Hello everyone,

The modus-themes (modus-operandi, modus-vivendi) are distributed under
the terms of the GNU GPLv3 and are part of Emacs.  I was wondering
whether their colours could be licensed under different terms, such as
by putting them in the public domain (with Creative Commons).

I am reading the GNU commentary on licenses[1] and understand that my
choice will have to be compatible with the GPL.  What I am not sure
about are the following:

* Is it possible to keep the modus-themes under the GPL but also
  dedicate its colours to the public domain?

* Does the inclusion of the modus-themes in Emacs impose any constraints
  on the possibility of such a dual license arrangement?

If there is any precedent or resources I could refer to, please let me
know.

I intend to do what is good for Emacs and, by extension, GNU: if a dual
license for the colours of the modus-themes can cause problems for
Emacs, then I will simply not do it.

As for why I am asking this: there are cases where someone wants to
reuse the colours of the modus-themes---just the colours---for stylistic
purposes and there is uncertainty whether they are allowed to do so
under the terms of the GPL.

All the best,
Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")

[1] <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html>

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Po Lu]

Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com> writes:

> The modus-themes (modus-operandi, modus-vivendi) are distributed under
> the terms of the GNU GPLv3 and are part of Emacs.  I was wondering
> whether their colours could be licensed under different terms, such as
> by putting them in the public domain (with Creative Commons).
>
> I am reading the GNU commentary on licenses[1] and understand that my
> choice will have to be compatible with the GPL.  What I am not sure
> about are the following:
>
> * Is it possible to keep the modus-themes under the GPL but also
>   dedicate its colours to the public domain?
>
> * Does the inclusion of the modus-themes in Emacs impose any constraints
>   on the possibility of such a dual license arrangement?
>
> If there is any precedent or resources I could refer to, please let me
> know.
>
> I intend to do what is good for Emacs and, by extension, GNU: if a dual
> license for the colours of the modus-themes can cause problems for
> Emacs, then I will simply not do it.
>
> As for why I am asking this: there are cases where someone wants to
> reuse the colours of the modus-themes---just the colours---for stylistic
> purposes and there is uncertainty whether they are allowed to do so
> under the terms of the GPL.
>
> All the best,
> Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")
>
> [1] <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html>

Disclaimer, IANAL.

I think if you are the only person to have devised colors for
modus-themes, then you can do whatever you want with them.

But if someone else has, you need his consent to re-license (or dual
license) the list of colors that he devised, etc.

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 13:06:47 +0800
>
> Disclaimer, IANAL.
>
> I think if you are the only person to have devised colors for
> modus-themes, then you can do whatever you want with them.
>
> But if someone else has, you need his consent to re-license (or dual
> license) the list of colors that he devised, etc.

Thank you for the feedback!  Yes, I am the sole author.  I devised the
colour palette from scratch and occasionally make minor tweaks to it.

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Case Duckworth]

Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com> writes:

>> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
>> Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 13:06:47 +0800
>>
>> Disclaimer, IANAL.
>
> Thank you for the feedback!  Yes, I am the sole author.  I devised the
> colour palette from scratch and occasionally make minor tweaks to it.

Let me repeat Po Lu's warning of IANAL, but from a cursory search online
it appears that color schemes themselves can't be copyrighted, at least
under some legal environments (I'm in America, so I'm assuming my
searches are returning results at least semi-pertinent to American law).

You /can/ copyright images that use certain colors, but not the actual
pallette or distribution of colors themselves.  I would assume it's like
how recipes are non-copywriteable (hence the long digressions into the
author's personal life preceding all recipes found online).

I only checked [1] and [2] before sending this email, so you might want
to consult with a lawyer in your jurisdiction.

[1]: https://www.colormatters.com/color-and-marketing/color-branding-legal-rights
[2]: https://www.colourlovers.com/faq/18/How_can_you_copyright_a_color_palette

--
Hugs,
Case Duckworth
https://www.acdw.net
https://breadpunk.club/~breadw

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: Case Duckworth <acdw@acdw.net>
> Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 13:31:07 -0500
>
> Let me repeat Po Lu's warning of IANAL, but from a cursory search online
> it appears that color schemes themselves can't be copyrighted, at least
> under some legal environments (I'm in America, so I'm assuming my
> searches are returning results at least semi-pertinent to American law).
>
> [... 9 lines elided]
>
> [1]: https://www.colormatters.com/color-and-marketing/color-branding-legal-rights
> [2]: https://www.colourlovers.com/faq/18/How_can_you_copyright_a_color_palette

Interesting.  Thanks for sharing!

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Christopher Dimech]

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://stallmansupport.org/
https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org


> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2022 at 4:31 PM
> From: "Protesilaos Stavrou" <info@protesilaos.com>
> To: "emacs-devel" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> The modus-themes (modus-operandi, modus-vivendi) are distributed under
> the terms of the GNU GPLv3 and are part of Emacs.  I was wondering
> whether their colours could be licensed under different terms, such as
> by putting them in the public domain (with Creative Commons).
>
> I am reading the GNU commentary on licenses[1] and understand that my
> choice will have to be compatible with the GPL.  What I am not sure
> about are the following:
>
> * Is it possible to keep the modus-themes under the GPL but also
>   dedicate its colours to the public domain?

Release modus-themes including its dedicate colours under GPLv3+, or
do something better by releasing under AGPLv3+.  Then release the colours
separately under a free software license.   If you want to use Creative
Commons, use only CC0.

> * Does the inclusion of the modus-themes in Emacs impose any constraints
>   on the possibility of such a dual license arrangement?
>
> If there is any precedent or resources I could refer to, please let me
> know.
>
> I intend to do what is good for Emacs and, by extension, GNU: if a dual
> license for the colours of the modus-themes can cause problems for
> Emacs, then I will simply not do it.

For emacs release under license compatible with GPLv3+.

> As for why I am asking this: there are cases where someone wants to
> reuse the colours of the modus-themes---just the colours---for stylistic
> purposes and there is uncertainty whether they are allowed to do so
> under the terms of the GPL.

You can re-release your own works under any terms you want.  You are not
restricted on any specific copyright terms for your own work.

> All the best,
> Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")
>
> [1] <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html>
>
> --
> Protesilaos Stavrou
> https://protesilaos.com
>
>

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 11:55:14 +0200
> 
> Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
> Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
> bestow.
> 
> In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
> Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
> opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

Please keep irrelevant messages off this list.

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 11:55:14 +0200
>
>> * Is it possible to keep the modus-themes under the GPL but also
>>   dedicate its colours to the public domain?
>
> Release modus-themes including its dedicate colours under GPLv3+, or
> do something better by releasing under AGPLv3+.  Then release the colours
> separately under a free software license.   If you want to use Creative
> Commons, use only CC0.

Thank you!  The modus-themes are already GPLv3+ licensed and copyright
is assigned to the FSF.

My understanding is that I can distribute their colours---just the
colours---under Creative Commons CC0 (I am their sole author).  My
concern was whether there could be complications for Emacs, since the
modus-themes are a part of it.  What I have gathered thus far is that
such an arrangement should not be a problem.

I will seek to confirm this conclusion and act accordingly.  Again, my
priority is Emacs: I will not jeopardise it.

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Stefan Monnier]

> My understanding is that I can distribute their colours---just the
> colours---under Creative Commons CC0 (I am their sole author).  My
> concern was whether there could be complications for Emacs, since the
> modus-themes are a part of it.  What I have gathered thus far is that
> such an arrangement should not be a problem.

AFAIK when you assigned the copyright to the FSF, the FSF returned to
you almost all those rights, including the right to redistribute this
same work under any license you like.

So if you want, *you* can distribute (on your side) the whole of
modus-themes under the CC0.  There should be no problem with that.

And of course you can also distribute just "their colors" under any
license you like.  [ Tho, I must admit I don't know what it means to
distribute "just their colors".  ]


        Stefan

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 08:21:01 -0400
>
>> My understanding is that I can distribute their colours---just the
>> colours---under Creative Commons CC0 (I am their sole author).  My
>> concern was whether there could be complications for Emacs, since the
>> modus-themes are a part of it.  What I have gathered thus far is that
>> such an arrangement should not be a problem.
>
> AFAIK when you assigned the copyright to the FSF, the FSF returned to
> you almost all those rights, including the right to redistribute this
> same work under any license you like.
>
> So if you want, *you* can distribute (on your side) the whole of
> modus-themes under the CC0.  There should be no problem with that.

Okay.  What I want is to preserve the GPL.

> And of course you can also distribute just "their colors" under any
> license you like.  [ Tho, I must admit I don't know what it means to
> distribute "just their colors".  ]

In this case, "just their colors" means to publish a page on my website
like protesilaos.com/modus-themes-colors that contains a table like the
following and which states it is distributed under CC0:

| name              | value   |
|-------------------+---------|
| bg-main           | #ffffff |
| fg-main           | #000000 |
| red               | #a60000 |
| magenta-alt-other | #5317ac |

[ All values will be taken from the variables
  modus-themes-operandi-colors, modus-themes-vivendi-colors. ]

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Stefan Monnier]

> In this case, "just their colors" means to publish a page on my website
> like protesilaos.com/modus-themes-colors that contains a table like the
> following and which states it is distributed under CC0:
>
> | name              | value   |
> |-------------------+---------|
> | bg-main           | #ffffff |
> | fg-main           | #000000 |
> | red               | #a60000 |
> | magenta-alt-other | #5317ac |
>
> [ All values will be taken from the variables
>   modus-themes-operandi-colors, modus-themes-vivendi-colors. ]

Yes, you can definitely do that without any worries.
[ As mentioned by someone else, it's not even clear if copyright can
  apply to this anyway, but feel free to declare it as covered by CC0,
  just in case.
  More specifically, I suspect copyright can apply to the specific
  text/format/ordering you use in the above file, but not to the
  conceptual associations between the concept of main background color
  and the color "#ffffff", etc...
  AFAIU Copyright does not apply to ideas, only to their concrete
  expression.
  IOW You can also put such a table in the ELisp files and I think the
  law would allow people to use the underlying design regardless of the
  license we use for the file.  ]


        Stefan

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2022 at 6:39 PM
> From: "Protesilaos Stavrou" <info@protesilaos.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "emacs-devel" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?
>
> > From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 11:55:14 +0200
> >
> >> * Is it possible to keep the modus-themes under the GPL but also
> >>   dedicate its colours to the public domain?
> >
> > Release modus-themes including its dedicate colours under GPLv3+, or
> > do something better by releasing under AGPLv3+.  Then release the colours
> > separately under a free software license.   If you want to use Creative
> > Commons, use only CC0.
>
> Thank you!  The modus-themes are already GPLv3+ licensed and copyright
> is assigned to the FSF.
>
> My understanding is that I can distribute their colours---just the
> colours---under Creative Commons CC0 (I am their sole author).  My
> concern was whether there could be complications for Emacs, since the
> modus-themes are a part of it.  What I have gathered thus far is that
> such an arrangement should not be a problem.

There will be no complications.

> I will seek to confirm this conclusion and act accordingly.  Again, my
> priority is Emacs: I will not jeopardise it.

You can release with any number of licences you want.  If emacs want them
GPL Compatible, then release them for the emacs maintainers as GPL Compatible.

I discourage mixing licenses when releasing for Gnu.  You can then release
the colours any other ways you want.  As the author, no rules apply to you
with regards to how you can use them or release them, unless forced on you
by some license of somebody else.



> --
> Protesilaos Stavrou
> https://protesilaos.com
>

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>,  emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 08:21:01 -0400
> 
> AFAIK when you assigned the copyright to the FSF, the FSF returned to
> you almost all those rights, including the right to redistribute this
> same work under any license you like.
> 
> So if you want, *you* can distribute (on your side) the whole of
> modus-themes under the CC0.  There should be no problem with that.

Right.  As long as Emacs is still capable of distributing the themes
under our license, the same code can _also_ be distributed under any
license the author choses.

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > AFAIK when you assigned the copyright to the FSF, the FSF returned to
  > you almost all those rights,

"Licensed back to you" is a more precise way of stating what the FSF
did.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Dual license the colours of the Modus themes?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > So if you want, *you* can distribute (on your side) the whole of
  > > modus-themes under the CC0.  There should be no problem with that.

  > Okay.  What I want is to preserve the GPL.

Bravo!  Usually what's best for the free software movement
is to refuse to undermine copyleft.

Once in a rare while there is a good reason why allowing a weaker
license for a specific set of code will help the movement advance.
But we need to subject the idea to careful scrutiny before becoming
convinced, and see if a smaller change (less code, or a smaller
exception) would suffice to achieve the benefit.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)