From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers!
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:34:18 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2101071432270453.11381@sdf.lonestar.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <X/cMKCItEGzw8S7h@ACM>
>
> Let me repeat, it is not the content of your posts I find difficult to
> deal with. It's their rudeness and aggressiveness.
>
I think we are miscommunicating. I honestly don't understand where you
perceive "rudeness and aggressiveness" in my posts. I can only say again
that this was not at all my intention.
>
>> The old behavior is indeed valuable, if only because it is an old
>> behavior.
>
> So you're defending old bugs as valuable, simply because they're old.
> You decline to defend this behaviour on its merits. Nobody else has
> done so either, as far as I'm aware.
>
I did defend it on its merits, multiple times. What I said did not
convince you; I should perhaps have written something more detailed, as I
do below.
I experienced the behavior which surprised you from time to time, and
found it coherent with the general Emacs behavior.
Let's first define that behavior again: from a user's point of view, in
Emacs 21 (and possibly earlier) to 27, when minibuffers MB1 to MBn are
active on a frame F1, and a command that activates the minibuffer is
started on a frame F2, the minibuffers MB1 to MBn are moved to frame F2,
and the minibuffer MBn+1 is created. This behavior happens with
enable-recursive-minibuffers set to t, either globally or temporarily.
The other possible behaviors are, AFAICS, the ones you try to implement:
1. Either tying each minibuffer to the frame in which it is created. If
you tie each minibuffer to the frame in which it was created, there are
two options:
1.1. Either it becomes possible to interact with them. From an UI point
of view, the problem of that behavior is that it is not coherent with
recursive edits in Emacs, of which recursive minibuffers are an instance.
When you enter a recursive edit you cannot act on the non-recursive edit
level or on the previous recursive edit levels anymore, you first have to
leave the current recursive edit. As the Emacs manual explains, recursive
edits "constrain you to go back in a particular order---from the innermost
level toward the top level." IOW, that behavior would violate the general
recursive editing constraint.
1.2. Or you make sure in one way or another that it is not possible to
interact with them, which means that the user sees a minibuffer that it
cannot use (for instance by clicking on it). From an UI point of view,
this would be counter-intuitive; I don't know any other UI element that is
displayed by Emacs and that you cannot interact with.
2. Or always moving the minibuffers to the currently active frame. From
an UI point of view, the problem is that such a movement is, in most
cases, gratuitious: when you start a command in a frame and switch to
another frame, in most cases this switch is a temporary one (for example
to check the documentation of the command you just started), and what you
intend to do is to switch back to the frame in which you started the
command to complete it.
The old behavior, which you despise, is not "chaotic" (see the definition
of that word in Wordnet: "completely unordered and unpredictable and
confusing", or in Wiktionary: "extremely disorganized"), it is
well-defined, and it is a reasonable solution which avoids (at least)
these three problems. And it has worked well for virtually all Emacs
users in the last twenty years.
There is, in fact, a fourth possible behavior, which AFAICT has not been
discussed in this thread:
1.3. Tying each minibuffer to the frame in which it is created, but make
it invisible when a recursive minibuffer is entered in another frame, and
visible again when that recursive minibuffer is left. The problem I see
in this potential behavior is that, upon leaving the recursive minibuffer,
the user would have no indication that another minibuffer is still (or
rather, again) open in another frame, waiting for their input. This is
yet another problem that the old behavior avoids.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-01-07 23:34 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 259+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-10-13 19:02 Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers! Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-13 19:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13 19:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-13 20:25 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 20:44 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-13 21:02 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 16:02 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-14 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 16:35 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-14 17:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 18:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-14 18:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 19:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-15 13:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 18:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-15 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-21 15:19 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-21 16:49 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-21 19:13 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-21 18:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-21 19:38 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-21 20:04 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-22 16:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-23 20:42 ` C-x o is moving between frames. [Was: Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers!] Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-23 20:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-24 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-24 15:44 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-24 18:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-24 19:29 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-30 22:09 ` Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers! Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-31 7:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-31 16:14 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-31 16:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-31 19:44 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-31 20:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-31 20:39 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-01 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-01 19:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-01 20:52 ` Non-nested minibuffers (was: Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers!) Stefan Monnier
2020-11-02 17:19 ` Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers! Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-02 18:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-02 19:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-03 21:08 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-04 16:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-04 17:39 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-09 15:09 ` Madhu
2020-11-09 20:34 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10 3:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 8:08 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10 8:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 13:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-10 17:27 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10 18:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 22:43 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-11 15:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 19:57 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-10 22:54 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10 23:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-11 7:47 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-11 16:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-11 20:37 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-14 13:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-14 17:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-14 18:48 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-14 19:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-14 19:24 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-14 21:37 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-15 8:48 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-19 10:40 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-19 11:40 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-19 13:30 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-20 18:47 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-20 21:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-20 21:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-21 9:02 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-21 10:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-21 11:55 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-21 12:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-21 15:53 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-22 10:59 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-22 15:13 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-22 17:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-22 19:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-22 17:57 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-22 18:38 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-23 9:10 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 13:36 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-23 14:22 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 16:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-23 18:08 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 20:16 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-24 8:46 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 20:22 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-23 20:26 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-24 8:47 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-24 8:46 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-24 10:25 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-24 11:37 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-24 19:24 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-25 9:25 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-25 21:09 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-25 21:31 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-25 21:54 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-25 22:23 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 10:02 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 10:36 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 10:47 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 11:20 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 12:03 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 11:14 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 12:03 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 15:42 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 15:54 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 17:14 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 17:43 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 18:08 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 20:02 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 18:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-26 15:44 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-26 20:32 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 7:33 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 9:34 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 10:06 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 10:36 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 10:43 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 15:41 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 16:19 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 17:14 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 18:01 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 18:35 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 20:05 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-28 10:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-28 15:35 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-28 17:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-28 20:59 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-28 21:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-28 22:01 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-28 22:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-28 22:38 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-29 18:15 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 10:13 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 10:36 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 11:30 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 12:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-27 13:43 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 14:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-27 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-27 22:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 15:42 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-03 18:10 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-03 18:24 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-03 18:42 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-03 20:08 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-03 20:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-04 9:20 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-05 18:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-05 18:53 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-07 17:36 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-07 18:08 ` Drew Adams
2021-01-07 18:26 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-10 0:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 1:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-10 16:03 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 16:04 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-10 17:18 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 17:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-10 17:49 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-10 18:25 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 19:05 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-06 0:14 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06 0:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-06 9:40 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06 15:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-07 7:52 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07 13:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-07 23:34 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions. [this message]
2020-11-26 15:43 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 11:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-24 12:59 ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-24 19:24 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-21 17:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-21 18:08 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-11 8:28 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-11 18:47 ` Drew Adams
2020-11-11 19:10 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-10 16:45 ` Drew Adams
2020-11-10 19:51 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-10 20:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 20:12 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14 20:17 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-14 17:07 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 20:51 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-13 21:02 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 22:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-13 22:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 14:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 17:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:32 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-14 17:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 1:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 1:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-13 19:22 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 22:25 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] <<20201031194419.GC5887@ACM>
[not found] ` <<834kmago8m.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<20201031203914.GD5887@ACM>
[not found] ` <<835z6ogc1h.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<20201101195313.GA6190@ACM>
[not found] ` <<83sg9rd6cp.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<20201102185147.GC7297@ACM>
[not found] ` <<83mtzzd0s3.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<20201103210853.GA21923@ACM>
[not found] ` <<83ft5pax2p.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<20201104173954.GA14535@ACM>
[not found] ` <<m31rh2pnws.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>
[not found] ` <<m28sbas208.fsf@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<83v9ed3nbw.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<m21rh1prap.fsf@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <<CF5D4DFC-5288-4D2C-AF4A-A7D1B267CAFF@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<44261efc-da8d-44f2-9a9a-200d1683b313@default>
[not found] ` <<jwvzh3pvvmi.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<83imad0yb3.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-11-10 20:17 ` Drew Adams
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-02-03 15:20 jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-06 15:52 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-06 23:25 jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-07 12:55 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-07 16:44 ` jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-07 20:26 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-08 12:53 ` jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-11 11:44 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-11 14:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-02-12 9:48 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-13 18:23 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-13 19:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-13 20:24 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-13 20:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-14 18:26 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-14 18:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-14 20:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-13 20:53 ` jakanakaevangeli
2021-03-14 19:17 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-14 21:23 ` Miha Rihtaršič
2021-03-17 19:32 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-17 19:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-17 20:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-18 11:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-18 11:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-18 15:51 ` martin rudalics
2021-03-18 16:58 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-18 18:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-19 11:40 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-19 12:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-19 15:35 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-19 15:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 10:28 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 10:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 12:24 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 12:49 ` Miha Rihtaršič
2021-03-20 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-21 10:30 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21 10:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-21 10:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-21 14:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21 15:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-21 15:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-21 16:17 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2021-03-21 16:37 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 12:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 13:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 13:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-20 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 14:12 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21 15:44 ` Miha Rihtaršič
2021-03-21 17:03 ` Alan Mackenzie
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