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From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: Andrii Kolomoiets <andreyk.mad@gmail.com>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org, martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>,
	enometh@meer.net, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers!
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:03:38 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2011271247070453.6203@sdf.lonestar.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <X8DfsrYryab9rw9j@ACM>


Hi Alan,

>> This is normal again, C-x 8 RET starts an operation which uses the 
>> minibuffer, and the cursor leaves the buffer in which you are and moves 
>> to the miniwindow.  As explained above, when an operation which 
>> activates a minibuffer is used on a frame while other minibuffers are 
>> active on another frame, they are moved to that frame.  I honestly 
>> can't see what's wrong with this.
>
> I can see a lot wrong with it, from a UI point of view.  Whether the MB 
> gets moved depends on _how_ a user enters characters into C-r.  This is 
> bad.  The MB should either move when you type C-r or it shouldn't.
>

I disagree with that explanation.  You do not "enter characters into C-r". 
When you type characters after typing C-r, they are displayed in the echo 
area, but that doesn't mean you enter them there: the cursor does not move 
there.  When you type C-x 8 RET, the cursor moves into the miniwindow, and 
at that point you type characters in a minibuffer.

>
> Emacs 28 fixes this.
>

At the cost of breaking a longstanding behavior...

>
> Also we shouldn't force users to have to understand the difference 
> between the echo area and the minibuffer.  Some of them will understand, 
> many will not.
>

That's a basic thing to learn when you use Emacs.  And it's easy to 
understand: the echo area is for "status messages" with which you do not 
interact (and this is visible because the point does not leave the buffer 
in which you are), minibuffers are for "commands" with which you interact 
(and this is visible because the point moves from the buffer in which you 
are to the miniwindow).

>
> That most of isearch uses the echo area, but some of it uses the 
> minibuffer, is an arcane implementation issue which users shouldn't have 
> to worry about.  We should leave them in peace.
>

I doubt a user who does not understand the difference between the echo 
area and the minibuffer would use C-x 8 RET during an isearch.  And even 
then, with the above explanation that difference is easy to understand.



  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-27 12:03 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 259+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-10-13 19:02 Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers! Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-13 19:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13 19:51   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-13 20:25     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 20:44       ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-13 21:02         ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14 14:34         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 16:02           ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-14 16:14             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 16:35               ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-14 17:05                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 18:45                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-14 18:58                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 19:49                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-15 13:44                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 18:01                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-15 18:18                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-21 15:19                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-21 16:49                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-21 19:13                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-21 18:32                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-21 19:38                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-21 20:04                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-22 16:14                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-23 20:42                                     ` C-x o is moving between frames. [Was: Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers!] Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-23 20:55                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-24  7:26                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-24 15:44                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-24 18:40                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-24 19:29                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-30 22:09                                     ` Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers! Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-31  7:25                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-31 16:14                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-31 16:45                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-31 19:44                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-10-31 20:00                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-31 20:39                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-01 18:35                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-01 19:53                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-01 20:52                                                       ` Non-nested minibuffers (was: Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers!) Stefan Monnier
2020-11-02 17:19                                                       ` Stop frames stealing eachothers' minibuffers! Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-02 18:51                                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-02 19:19                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-03 21:08                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-04 16:47                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-04 17:39                                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-09 15:09                                                                   ` Madhu
2020-11-09 20:34                                                                     ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10  3:25                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10  8:08                                                                         ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10  8:52                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 13:21                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-10 17:27                                                                               ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10 18:26                                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 22:43                                                                                   ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-11 15:38                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 19:57                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-10 22:54                                                                                   ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-10 23:18                                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-11  7:47                                                                                       ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-11 16:07                                                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-11 20:37                                                                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-14 13:36                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-14 17:12                                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-14 18:48                                                                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-14 19:11                                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-14 19:24                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-11-14 21:37                                                                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-15  8:48                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2020-11-19 10:40                                                                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-19 11:40                                                                                           ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-19 13:30                                                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-20 18:47                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2020-11-20 21:00                                                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-20 21:36                                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-21  9:02                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2020-11-21 10:27                                                                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-21 11:55                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-11-21 12:45                                                                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-21 15:53                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2020-11-22 10:59                                                                                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-22 15:13                                                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-22 17:11                                                                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-22 19:58                                                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-22 17:57                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2020-11-22 18:38                                                                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-23  9:10                                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 13:36                                                                                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-23 14:22                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 16:07                                                                                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-23 18:08                                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 20:16                                                                                                                         ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-24  8:46                                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2020-11-23 20:22                                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-23 20:26                                                                                                                           ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-24  8:47                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-11-24  8:46                                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2020-11-24 10:25                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-11-24 11:37                                                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-24 19:24                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-25  9:25                                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-11-25 21:09                                                                                                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-25 21:31                                                                                                                                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-25 21:54                                                                                                                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-25 22:23                                                                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 10:02                                                                                                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 10:36                                                                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 10:47                                                                                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 11:20                                                                                                                                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 12:03                                                                                                                                                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 11:14                                                                                                                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 12:03                                                                                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions. [this message]
2020-11-27 15:42                                                                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 15:54                                                                                                                                                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 17:14                                                                                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 17:43                                                                                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 18:08                                                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 20:02                                                                                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 18:50                                                                                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-26 15:44                                                                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-11-26 20:32                                                                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27  7:33                                                                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27  9:34                                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 10:06                                                                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 10:36                                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 10:43                                                                                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 15:41                                                                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 16:19                                                                                                                                                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 17:14                                                                                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 18:01                                                                                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 18:35                                                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 20:05                                                                                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-28 10:45                                                                                                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-28 15:35                                                                                                                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-28 17:02                                                                                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-28 20:59                                                                                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-28 21:10                                                                                                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-28 22:01                                                                                                                                                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-28 22:10                                                                                                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-28 22:38                                                                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-29 18:15                                                                                                                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 10:13                                                                                                                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 10:36                                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 11:30                                                                                                                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 12:29                                                                                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-27 13:43                                                                                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-27 14:09                                                                                                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-27 15:03                                                                                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-27 22:00                                                                                                                                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-27 15:42                                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-03 18:10                                                                                                                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-03 18:24                                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-03 18:42                                                                                                                                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-03 20:08                                                                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2021-01-03 20:43                                                                                                                                                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-04  9:20                                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-05 18:07                                                                                                                                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-05 18:53                                                                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2021-01-07 17:36                                                                                                                                                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-07 18:08                                                                                                                                                         ` Drew Adams
2021-01-07 18:26                                                                                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2021-01-10  0:53                                                                                                                                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10  1:34                                                                                                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-10 16:03                                                                                                                                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 16:04                                                                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2021-01-10 17:18                                                                                                                                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 17:30                                                                                                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-10 17:49                                                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-10 18:25                                                                                                                                                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-10 19:05                                                                                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2021-01-06  0:14                                                                                                                                                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06  0:48                                                                                                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-06  9:40                                                                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06 15:52                                                                                                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-07  7:52                                                                                                                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:33                                                                                                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07 13:27                                                                                                                                                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-07 23:34                                                                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-11-26 15:43                                                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2020-11-27 11:53                                                                                                                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-11-24 12:59                                                                                                                               ` Andrii Kolomoiets
2020-11-24 19:24                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2020-11-21 17:19                                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-21 18:08                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-11-11  8:28                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2020-11-11 18:47                                                                                     ` Drew Adams
2020-11-11 19:10                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2020-11-10 16:45                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2020-11-10 19:51                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-11-10 20:08                                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-10 20:12                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14 20:17                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-14 17:07                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 20:51       ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-13 21:02         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 22:22         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-13 22:28   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 14:47     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 17:22       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:32         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-14 17:47           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15  1:43             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:43         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15  1:42           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-13 19:22 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-13 22:25 ` Stefan Monnier
     [not found] <<20201031194419.GC5887@ACM>
     [not found] ` <<834kmago8m.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <<20201031203914.GD5887@ACM>
     [not found]     ` <<835z6ogc1h.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <<20201101195313.GA6190@ACM>
     [not found]         ` <<83sg9rd6cp.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <<20201102185147.GC7297@ACM>
     [not found]             ` <<83mtzzd0s3.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]               ` <<20201103210853.GA21923@ACM>
     [not found]                 ` <<83ft5pax2p.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                   ` <<20201104173954.GA14535@ACM>
     [not found]                     ` <<m31rh2pnws.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>
     [not found]                       ` <<m28sbas208.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]                         ` <<83v9ed3nbw.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                           ` <<m21rh1prap.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]                             ` <<CF5D4DFC-5288-4D2C-AF4A-A7D1B267CAFF@gnu.org>
     [not found]                               ` <<44261efc-da8d-44f2-9a9a-200d1683b313@default>
     [not found]                                 ` <<jwvzh3pvvmi.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                   ` <<83imad0yb3.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-11-10 20:17                                     ` Drew Adams
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-02-03 15:20 jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-06 15:52 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-06 23:25 jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-07 12:55 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-07 16:44   ` jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-07 20:26     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-08 12:53       ` jakanakaevangeli
2021-02-11 11:44         ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-02-11 14:29           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-02-12  9:48             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-13 18:23             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-13 19:39               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-13 20:24                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-13 20:52                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-14 18:26                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-14 18:48                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-14 20:32                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-13 20:53               ` jakanakaevangeli
2021-03-14 19:17                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-14 21:23                   ` Miha Rihtaršič
2021-03-17 19:32                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-17 19:55                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-17 20:19                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-18 11:27                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-18 11:46                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-18 15:51                               ` martin rudalics
2021-03-18 16:58                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-18 18:44                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-19 11:40                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-19 12:33                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-19 15:35                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-19 15:59                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 10:28                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 10:49                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 12:24                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 12:49                                                   ` Miha Rihtaršič
2021-03-20 13:59                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-21 10:30                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21 10:38                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-21 10:40                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-21 14:49                                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21 15:00                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-21 15:43                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-21 16:17                                                             ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2021-03-21 16:37                                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 12:50                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 13:51                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-20 13:55                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-20 14:01                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 14:12                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21 15:44                       ` Miha Rihtaršič
2021-03-21 17:03                         ` Alan Mackenzie

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