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From: Eric Frederickson <ericfrederickson68@gmail.com>
To: esr@thyrsus.com
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2023 20:58:10 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87ttt7odzh.fsf@arch.mail-host-address-is-not-set> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <ZNQ7D+bokRsekJJE@thyrsus.com>

"Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> writes:

> Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>:
>> "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> writes:
>> 
>> > When I first worked on Emacs code in the 1980s Lisp was already fast
>> > enough, and machine speeds have gone up by something like 10^3 since.
>> > I plain don't believe the "slower" part can be an issue on modern
>> > hardware, not even on tiny SBCs.
>> 
>> Can you promise the same, if your changes are not restricted to one or
>> two functions in fileio.c, but instead pervade throughout C source?
>
> Yes, in fact, I can. Because if by some miracle we were able to
> instantly rewrite the entirety of Emacs in Python (which I'm not
> advocating, I chose it because it's the slowest of the major modern
> scripting languages) basic considerations of clocks per second would
> predict it to run a *dead minimum* of two orders of magnitude faster
> than the Emacs of, say, 1990.
>
> And 1990 Emacs was already way fast enough for the human eye and
> brain, which can't even register interface lag of less than 0.17
> seconds (look up the story of Jef Raskin and how he exploited this
> psychophysical fact in the design of the Canon Cat sometime; it's very
> instructive). The human auditory system can perceive finer timeslices,
> down to about 0.02s in skilled musicians, but we're not using elisp
> for audio signal processing.
>
> If you take away nothing else from this conversation, at least get it
> through your head that "more Lisp might make Emacs too slow" is a
> deeply, *deeply* silly idea. It's 2023 and the only ways you can make
> a user-facing program slow enough for response lag to be noticeable
> are disk latency on spinning rust, network round-trips, or operations
> with a superlinear big-O in critical paths.  Mere interpretive overhead
> won't do it.
>
>> Finally, you haven't addressed the remainder of the reasons I itemized.
>
> They were too obvious, describing problems that competent software
> engineers know how to prevent or hedge against, and you addressed me
> as though I were a n00b that just fell off a cabbage truck. My
> earliest contributions to Emacs were done so long ago that they
> predated the systematic Changelog convention; have you heard the
> expression "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs"?  My patience for
> that sort of thing is limited.

Sorry to jump in, but I can't resist.

You're critical of others for not showing you deep respect as a Developer of the
Highest Caliber, and yet you act with the absurd intention of "sneaking up on"
changes? And then refuse to reveal your apparently grand intentions underlying
this sleight-of-hand project?

Emacs is a program that I and many thousands of others rely on every day to get
work done; please don't pollute its development ecosystem with that utter
nonsense.

- Eric Frederickson

> -- 
> 		<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>



  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-08-10  1:58 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 331+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-08-09  9:46 Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 11:03   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 11:29     ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 12:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-09 15:51   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 23:56     ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  1:19       ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10  1:47         ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  1:58         ` Eric Frederickson [this message]
2023-08-10  2:07           ` Sam James
2023-08-10  2:44             ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  6:48             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:21               ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:19             ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:56               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11  5:46               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  8:45                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 11:24                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 12:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 13:16                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10  2:28         ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  4:15           ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  7:44         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:54           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 10:27             ` Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:10               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 12:32                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:38                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 14:07                     ` [PATCH] " Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 18:06                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 19:41                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 19:50                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:24                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:03                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:09                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:49                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:21                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  2:20                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:42                                         ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance Po Lu
2023-08-14  4:16                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:15                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                                             ` Po Lu
2023-08-14  9:28                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-15 14:28                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:20                                         ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 22:46                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:30                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:22                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:12                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 14:14               ` Mattias Engdegård
2023-08-11 18:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-10 23:49           ` Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-11  0:03             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-11  8:24               ` Immanuel Litzroth
2023-08-11  7:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  7:19               ` tomas
2023-08-11 10:57               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 11:28         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-08-10 21:26           ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-12  2:46           ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-12  3:22             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:33               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 15:58                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:13                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:55                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:23                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 20:55                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  0:13                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 18:32               ` tomas
2023-08-12 22:08                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 23:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  5:50                   ` tomas
2023-08-13  8:38                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 15:54                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-13  8:00                   ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-13  9:21                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:27                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-14  7:36                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-15 22:57                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-16 10:27                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 13:29                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  5:09                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  6:51                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  7:14                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  7:52                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 13:01                                           ` tomas
2023-08-20 13:12                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  8:28                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20  9:29                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 15:22                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 15:36                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 15:45                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 15:54                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:29                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:37                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:31                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:07                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-27  3:53                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 19:15                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 19:24                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  2:33                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  4:11                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:15                                                                       ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  4:36                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:43                                                                           ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  5:06                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:25                                                                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21  5:34                                                                               ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  9:17                                                                                 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  9:42                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 10:36                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:41                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:20                                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 14:49                                                                                             ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Andrea Corallo
2023-08-23 10:11                                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25  9:19                                                                                                 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 11:06                                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25 14:26                                                                                                     ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-26 11:14                                                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  1:40                                                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  7:38                                                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 13:42                                                                                                       ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 22:19                                                                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  5:04                                                                                                           ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28 19:49                                                                                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  0:47                                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  8:26                                                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 17:52                                                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 11:05                                                                                       ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:46                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:33                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:34                                                                                       ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                     ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:12                                                                                   ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:53                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  2:04                                                                                 ` Shrinking the C core Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  7:59                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-27  5:31                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  6:16                                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 10:48                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:56                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:22                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  4:41                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 11:27                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:15                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 20:39                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:59                                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:23                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:26                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 10:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27  4:01                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:53                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:48                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  9:06                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:25                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:55                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:03                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:34                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:02                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 20:11                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 21:09                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  2:01                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26  5:48                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 18:15                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 18:27                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:44                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:11                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  2:35                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  8:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:10                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:59                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:23                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 10:13                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:32                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  6:19                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:26                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:26                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 23:55                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-23  7:04                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 17:24                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-24 20:02                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 21:51                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21  8:54                                         ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  9:30                                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-21 11:13                                             ` Type declarations in Elisp Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:37                                             ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22  5:34                                               ` Type declarations in Elisp Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-22  6:16                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 11:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-22 23:33                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-25  9:29                                                     ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 20:42                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:42                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 14:04                                                       ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 14:07                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:46                                                           ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 17:15                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 18:06                                                               ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28  9:56                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 19:06                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-18  8:35                               ` Shrinking the C core Aurélien Aptel
2023-08-19 13:32                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-31  1:41                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:36                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-14  4:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 11:15                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12  3:28             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  3:48               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  3:50               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  6:00                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  6:02               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-12  7:38                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-09 12:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 16:11   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 16:44     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 17:57       ` Eric S. Raymond
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-08-13  7:59 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  8:06 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  5:32   ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-28  6:23     ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  6:21   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  5:50   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 12:20     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 14:39       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:17         ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:41           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:41 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  2:53   ` chad
2023-08-28  3:43   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  4:53   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  5:36     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  6:55       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  7:31         ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  8:06           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 14:30             ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:09               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-29  2:20                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:14               ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:36                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:07                   ` Po Lu
2023-08-31  1:07                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 14:08           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:08             ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:06               ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:15                 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 11:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-29  3:57               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01  1:18                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31  2:07             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01 14:58               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 16:36                 ` tomas
2023-09-04  1:32                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04  1:44                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-04  5:49                     ` Rudolf Schlatte
2023-09-04 14:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  1:21                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-07  1:54                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:02                         ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:36                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-07  7:56                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:19                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-07  8:39                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  9:28                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-09  1:00                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-09  6:25                                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-09  7:24                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:31                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:39                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-09  1:06                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-11 12:43                             ` tomas
2023-09-13  5:59                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-12  4:44                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-12 12:25                               ` João Távora
2023-09-12 11:31                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-09-13  6:12                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-05  4:23                   ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06  0:58               ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06  1:12                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-06  5:04                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 11:29                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-09-06 23:03                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:00                       ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:23                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  5:30                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  6:15                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 23:55                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-13  6:34                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:51                       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-09-07  9:20                         ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  9:34                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-08  2:00                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-08  7:35                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-09 10:05                         ` João Távora
2023-09-08 17:58                       ` Bob Rogers
2023-09-15 21:59                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-17 23:03                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  0:39                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 12:50                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  0:27                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  7:45       ` Andrea Monaco
2023-08-28 14:35         ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  3:46 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  3:51 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  4:47 ` tomas
2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt

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