From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: esr@thyrsus.com
Cc: sam@gentoo.org, ericfrederickson68@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 08:46:31 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <83y1iigmh4.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <ZNVUWuvEgcsUUnqy@thyrsus.com> (esr@thyrsus.com)
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 17:19:22 -0400
> From: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>
> Cc: Eric Frederickson <ericfrederickson68@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>:
> > I presume esr was under the same impression and hence even if he never
> > went through with his big plan, it'd be some easy wins from his perspective.
> >
> > Laying the groundwork for something that may or may not come off with
> > independent changes one believes are worthwhile isn't underhanded if
> > it's just a pipedream in the back of your head but you think the changes
> > are good in isolation.
>
> Exactly so. Experience has taught me the value of sneaking up on big
> changes in such a way that if you have to bail out midway through the
> grand plan you have still added value.
If each individual change has clear added value, yes. The problem is,
usually they don't, not IME with this project. I have too many gray
hair with this false assumption.
> And reducing the maintainence complexity of the core is a good thing
> in itself.
There's no such thing as a separate "maintainence complexity of the
core" in Emacs (assuming by "core" you allude to the C code). The
routine maintenance in Emacs includes both the C code and the Lisp
code that is part of the low-level infrastructure. files.el,
simple.el, subr.el, and many other *.el files (basically, everything
that's loaded in loadup.el, and then some, like dired.el) -- all those
constitute the core of Emacs, and are under constant supervision and
attention of the maintainers and core developers.
Moving old and well-tested C code out to Lisp usually _increases_
maintenance burden, because the old code in most cases needs _zero_
maintenance nowadays. Thus, the condition of the changes to have
added value is not usually fulfilled, and we need "other
considerations" to justify the costs.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-08-11 5:46 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 331+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-09 9:46 Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 11:03 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 11:29 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 12:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-09 15:51 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 23:56 ` Po Lu
2023-08-10 1:19 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 1:47 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10 1:58 ` Eric Frederickson
2023-08-10 2:07 ` Sam James
2023-08-10 2:44 ` Po Lu
2023-08-10 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:21 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:19 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:56 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 5:46 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2023-08-11 8:45 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 11:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 12:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 13:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 2:28 ` Po Lu
2023-08-10 4:15 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10 7:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 10:27 ` Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:10 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 12:32 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:38 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 14:07 ` [PATCH] " Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 18:06 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 19:41 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 19:50 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 8:24 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:03 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 9:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 9:49 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:21 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14 2:20 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 2:42 ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance Po Lu
2023-08-14 4:16 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 7:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14 7:50 ` Po Lu
2023-08-14 9:28 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-15 14:28 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 7:20 ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 22:46 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 8:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:22 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 9:12 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 14:14 ` Mattias Engdegård
2023-08-11 18:09 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-10 23:49 ` Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-11 0:03 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-11 8:24 ` Immanuel Litzroth
2023-08-11 7:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 7:19 ` tomas
2023-08-11 10:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 11:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-08-10 21:26 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-12 2:46 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-12 3:22 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 8:33 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 15:58 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 9:13 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 9:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:23 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 20:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 0:13 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 18:32 ` tomas
2023-08-12 22:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 23:09 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 5:50 ` tomas
2023-08-13 8:38 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 15:54 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-13 8:00 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-13 9:21 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 7:27 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-14 7:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14 7:50 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-15 22:57 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-16 10:27 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 13:29 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 5:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 6:51 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 7:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 7:52 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 13:01 ` tomas
2023-08-20 13:12 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 8:28 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 9:29 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 15:22 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 15:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 15:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 15:54 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:29 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:37 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:31 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-27 3:53 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 19:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 19:24 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 2:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 4:11 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 4:15 ` Po Lu
2023-08-21 4:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 4:43 ` Po Lu
2023-08-21 5:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 5:25 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21 5:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-21 9:17 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 9:42 ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 10:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:41 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 14:49 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Andrea Corallo
2023-08-23 10:11 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25 9:19 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 11:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25 14:26 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-26 11:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 1:40 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 7:38 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 13:42 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 22:19 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 5:04 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28 19:49 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 0:47 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 8:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 17:52 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 11:05 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:46 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:33 ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:34 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-08-21 11:02 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:12 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:53 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 2:04 ` Shrinking the C core Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 7:59 ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-27 5:31 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 6:16 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 10:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:56 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 11:27 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:15 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 20:39 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 5:59 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 6:23 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:21 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 7:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 10:46 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27 4:01 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 8:53 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 3:48 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 9:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 3:25 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 8:55 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:03 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:34 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:25 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 20:11 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 21:09 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 2:01 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26 5:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 18:15 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 18:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:44 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:11 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 2:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 8:48 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 10:13 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:32 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 6:19 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 6:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:21 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 7:25 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 23:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-23 7:04 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 17:24 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-24 20:02 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 21:51 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21 8:54 ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 9:30 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-21 11:13 ` Type declarations in Elisp Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:37 ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 5:34 ` Type declarations in Elisp Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-22 6:16 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 11:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-22 23:33 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-25 9:29 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 20:42 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 8:42 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 14:04 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 14:07 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:46 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 17:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 18:06 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28 9:56 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 19:06 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-18 8:35 ` Shrinking the C core Aurélien Aptel
2023-08-19 13:32 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-31 1:41 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-14 4:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 11:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 3:28 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12 3:48 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 3:50 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 6:00 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-12 7:38 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-09 12:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 16:11 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 16:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 17:57 ` Eric S. Raymond
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-08-13 7:59 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 8:06 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28 5:32 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-28 6:23 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 6:21 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28 5:50 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 12:20 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 14:39 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:17 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 2:41 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 1:41 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 2:53 ` chad
2023-08-28 3:43 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 4:53 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 5:36 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 6:55 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 7:31 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 8:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 14:30 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-29 2:20 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:14 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 2:36 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29 4:07 ` Po Lu
2023-08-31 1:07 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 14:08 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:08 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 2:06 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29 4:15 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 11:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-29 3:57 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 1:18 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31 2:07 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01 14:58 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 16:36 ` tomas
2023-09-04 1:32 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04 1:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-04 5:49 ` Rudolf Schlatte
2023-09-04 14:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 1:21 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-07 1:54 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 7:02 ` tomas
2023-09-07 7:36 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-07 7:56 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 8:19 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-07 8:39 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 9:28 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-09 1:00 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-09 6:25 ` Po Lu
2023-09-09 7:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07 9:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07 9:39 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-09 1:06 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11 0:43 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-11 12:43 ` tomas
2023-09-13 5:59 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-12 4:44 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-12 12:25 ` João Távora
2023-09-12 11:31 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-09-13 6:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-05 4:23 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 0:58 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-06 5:04 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 11:29 ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-09-06 23:03 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 7:00 ` tomas
2023-09-07 7:23 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 5:30 ` Po Lu
2023-09-07 6:15 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11 0:43 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 23:55 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-13 6:34 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 8:51 ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-09-07 9:20 ` Po Lu
2023-09-07 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-08 2:00 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-08 7:35 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-09 10:05 ` João Távora
2023-09-08 17:58 ` Bob Rogers
2023-09-15 21:59 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-17 23:03 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 0:39 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 12:50 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 0:27 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28 7:45 ` Andrea Monaco
2023-08-28 14:35 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 3:46 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 3:51 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 4:47 ` tomas
2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
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