Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>]

Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com> writes:

> Good day Zoltan and Philip,
>
>> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> Date: Tue,  1 Aug 2023 08:22:43 +0000
>>
>> Zoltan Kiraly <zolikydev@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Dear Emacs Development Team,
>>> I'm writing to bring your attention to an exceptional theme collection
>>> named "Ef Themes," created by Protesilaos Stavrou, the same author
>>> behind the Modus themes.
>>>
>>> Considering how well-received the Modus themes were and the positive
>>> response they received from the community, I'm confident that
>>> incorporating the "Ef Themes" collection into Emacs core would be of
>>> benefit to users. These themes offer an excellent choice for
>>> individuals who desire a more colorful Emacs environment while
>>> ensuring good readability.
>>
>> My main concern is that there are a lot of themes, which might be
>> overwhelming if they are all provided by default.
>
> I understand this point.  There are lots of Ef themes as well.
>
>> The other question is what the concrete use is of having them bundled
>> in by default.
>
> I don't have a strong opinion about this.  I guess the advantage is that
> it is easier for new users to discover more themes.  The same argument
> can be made for all the non-essential---but still useful---parts that
> are built into Emacs.

What I had in mind specifically was to not overpopulate the M-x
customize-themes buffer, perhaps only because I can still recall that
this was one of the first things that I discovered when using Emacs.

When it comes to the discover-ability of themes, one could also imagine
adding a command like `package-list-themes' that would pop up a buffer
with packages that are themes.

>> I am not sure what the argumentation was when adding the Modus Themes
>> to the core, but I have to admit that I was not really a fan of adding
>> the new Modus Themes (-tinted, -tritanopia, -deuteranopia) to the core
>> as well, because of the above mentioned point of having too much
>> provided by default, which can cause choice paralysis.
>
> I asked before adding the new Modus variants.  From my side, I would
> have added the new variants to the collection regardless.  It was just a
> matter of whether core Emacs would have the same version as my Git
> repository which, I believe, is the norm.
>
> Generally though, the feeling of overwhelming options is not going away
> by reducing the number of themes (which is the right number, anyway?).
> Assuming this is the goal, concerted effort is needed across many parts
> of Emacs.  For example, icomplete.el defines four minor modes and has to
> explain to new users what Fido is all about.  I personally do not mind
> this state of affairs.

Again, I don't think it is necessarily the potential number of different
implementations or variations a component in Emacs provides.

>> Perhaps a compromise could be to limit the number of themes that are
>> added to three or four of the most popular ones.
>
> Maybe this works for other themes.  Though when it comes to deuteranopia
> or tritanopia popularity will not be a reliable criterion.

Are you refering to ef-themes or modus-themes here?  

> At any rate, we can take a look at the latest Emacs survey where there
> are many entries for the Ef themes that were not consolidated in a
> single bar: <https://emacssurvey.org/results/3425413930>.  At the time
> of the survey, the Ef themes were only a few months old.
>
> [ I don't read too much into the survey data, though it is a point about
>   "popularity". ]
>
>>> What makes the EF themes stand out is the awesome documentation,
>>> covering everything a user needs to know, and the fact that it is
>>> constantly updated and improved.
>>
>> IIRC EF Themes had fewer customisation options than Modus Themes, right?
>> Is this something that would interest the "average" user who, I would
>> guess usually is not that invested as to read the manual of a theme?
>
> Yes, the Ef themes have fewer options than the Modus themes.  They still
> are customisable and the manual explains all the details.  On the
> flip-side, the Ef themes may be less confusing to the kind of user you
> allude to here, because they look okay out-of-the-box, plus they cover a
> wide range of preferences.
>
>>> I kindly request you to consider evaluating the "Ef Themes" collection
>>> for potential integration into Emacs core. By embracing this
>>> collection, we can offer users a wider array of visually appealing
>>> options while upholding the high standards of Emacs.
>>
>> On a tangent, what I was planning to work on for Emacs 30 was to add
>> more "semantic" faces (along the lines of highlight, match, success,
>> ...).  I had previously discussed the topic with Protesilaos (added in
>> the CC's), and I think his work on various themes is useful in
>> recognising common patterns in faces being defined in third-party faces
>> that make creating themes so cumbersome (because of all the explicit
>> support that has to be added for all the various known packages).  I
>> reckon that ideally, a theme shouldn't have to concern itself with
>> specific packages.
>
> I agree and am happy to contribute towards that end.  If you already
> have something, I am ready to contribute.  Otherwise, we can discuss it
> whenever you want.

I hope to be able to come back to you on this soon, as soon as I have a
prototype.

> All the best,
> Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")