From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:36:02 +0000 Message-ID: <87msz7rk9p.fsf@posteo.net> References: <64c430c5-f0b0-65cb-ee1d-b3eaf791ece6@gmail.com> <87mszbjhnw.fsf@posteo.net> <871qgmhxey.fsf@protesilaos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7685"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Zoltan Kiraly , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Protesilaos Stavrou Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 03 21:37:21 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qRe8P-0001pe-KO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 21:37:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRe7I-0002rN-Fo; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 15:36:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRe7G-0002r7-Rx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 15:36:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRe7C-0004uK-CL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 15:36:10 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4504B240027 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 21:36:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1691091363; bh=4ppy8GdVv7OyYp331JNxVUW839fh+vtoYjWmrEI3fcU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=RlfZ9O9GFXNDFE71P9YD6S0xM56BmTYXNiFBRjunhNA4FO63ZHMx2fObGZw68Q8vJ O/c1V4NA8HlRbTDuEGPy02Zs0GeL2U71w85a9W3w4xbX8QQEbmJBODdpE2xfcQITSi IhJPu+BruW0H8NsRVKixP3jTtMiLIPWdkAOurMDTuGD31eG1QsdGY57QJuoQ19qkb6 5IGlCgyGBAqHLp379mgsjoAcL5muL7fiwyUq8FpsPvfRdNrPaFLz/yE8ojn+ln+QN0 s8TurzWY9guKEMLDprUyHzz+WAwoFIW1O9VghgwTIabWAUABY9gPcntkqQC80zAC8l SgX1pZ52Fs0hQ== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RGzbk5S1jz9rxH; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 21:36:02 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <871qgmhxey.fsf@protesilaos.com> (Protesilaos Stavrou's message of "Wed, 02 Aug 2023 07:37:41 +0300") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308261 Archived-At: Protesilaos Stavrou writes: > Good day Zoltan and Philip, > >> From: Philip Kaludercic >> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:22:43 +0000 >> >> Zoltan Kiraly writes: >> >>> Dear Emacs Development Team, >>> I'm writing to bring your attention to an exceptional theme collection >>> named "Ef Themes," created by Protesilaos Stavrou, the same author >>> behind the Modus themes. >>> >>> Considering how well-received the Modus themes were and the positive >>> response they received from the community, I'm confident that >>> incorporating the "Ef Themes" collection into Emacs core would be of >>> benefit to users. These themes offer an excellent choice for >>> individuals who desire a more colorful Emacs environment while >>> ensuring good readability. >> >> My main concern is that there are a lot of themes, which might be >> overwhelming if they are all provided by default. > > I understand this point. There are lots of Ef themes as well. > >> The other question is what the concrete use is of having them bundled >> in by default. > > I don't have a strong opinion about this. I guess the advantage is that > it is easier for new users to discover more themes. The same argument > can be made for all the non-essential---but still useful---parts that > are built into Emacs. What I had in mind specifically was to not overpopulate the M-x customize-themes buffer, perhaps only because I can still recall that this was one of the first things that I discovered when using Emacs. When it comes to the discover-ability of themes, one could also imagine adding a command like `package-list-themes' that would pop up a buffer with packages that are themes. >> I am not sure what the argumentation was when adding the Modus Themes >> to the core, but I have to admit that I was not really a fan of adding >> the new Modus Themes (-tinted, -tritanopia, -deuteranopia) to the core >> as well, because of the above mentioned point of having too much >> provided by default, which can cause choice paralysis. > > I asked before adding the new Modus variants. From my side, I would > have added the new variants to the collection regardless. It was just a > matter of whether core Emacs would have the same version as my Git > repository which, I believe, is the norm. > > Generally though, the feeling of overwhelming options is not going away > by reducing the number of themes (which is the right number, anyway?). > Assuming this is the goal, concerted effort is needed across many parts > of Emacs. For example, icomplete.el defines four minor modes and has to > explain to new users what Fido is all about. I personally do not mind > this state of affairs. Again, I don't think it is necessarily the potential number of different implementations or variations a component in Emacs provides. >> Perhaps a compromise could be to limit the number of themes that are >> added to three or four of the most popular ones. > > Maybe this works for other themes. Though when it comes to deuteranopia > or tritanopia popularity will not be a reliable criterion. Are you refering to ef-themes or modus-themes here? > At any rate, we can take a look at the latest Emacs survey where there > are many entries for the Ef themes that were not consolidated in a > single bar: . At the time > of the survey, the Ef themes were only a few months old. > > [ I don't read too much into the survey data, though it is a point about > "popularity". ] > >>> What makes the EF themes stand out is the awesome documentation, >>> covering everything a user needs to know, and the fact that it is >>> constantly updated and improved. >> >> IIRC EF Themes had fewer customisation options than Modus Themes, right? >> Is this something that would interest the "average" user who, I would >> guess usually is not that invested as to read the manual of a theme? > > Yes, the Ef themes have fewer options than the Modus themes. They still > are customisable and the manual explains all the details. On the > flip-side, the Ef themes may be less confusing to the kind of user you > allude to here, because they look okay out-of-the-box, plus they cover a > wide range of preferences. > >>> I kindly request you to consider evaluating the "Ef Themes" collection >>> for potential integration into Emacs core. By embracing this >>> collection, we can offer users a wider array of visually appealing >>> options while upholding the high standards of Emacs. >> >> On a tangent, what I was planning to work on for Emacs 30 was to add >> more "semantic" faces (along the lines of highlight, match, success, >> ...). I had previously discussed the topic with Protesilaos (added in >> the CC's), and I think his work on various themes is useful in >> recognising common patterns in faces being defined in third-party faces >> that make creating themes so cumbersome (because of all the explicit >> support that has to be added for all the various known packages). I >> reckon that ideally, a theme shouldn't have to concern itself with >> specific packages. > > I agree and am happy to contribute towards that end. If you already > have something, I am ready to contribute. Otherwise, we can discuss it > whenever you want. I hope to be able to come back to you on this soon, as soon as I have a prototype. > All the best, > Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")