Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Craig Muth]

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Interested in hearing your feedback about my framework.  It adds free-form
wiki and tree features (and many others) to emacs.  Just did a couple
screencasts:

  http://xiki.org/screencasts/wiki_syntax.html
  http://xiki.org/screencasts/web_development.html

Much of it was originally elisp but is now ruby via el4r (I'm a much better
ruby programmer than elisp programmer).

--Craig

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Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Craig Muth]

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I added .mkv versions of the screencasts.

Again, very interested in feedback.  Worth checking out, IMO, for the file
browsing/searching ideas if nothing else:

  http://xiki.org/screencasts/wiki_syntax.html
  http://xiki.org/screencasts/web_development.html

--Craig


On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Craig Muth <craig.muth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Interested in hearing your feedback about my framework.  It adds free-form
> wiki and tree features (and many others) to emacs.  Just did a couple
> screencasts:
>
>   http://xiki.org/screencasts/wiki_syntax.html
>   http://xiki.org/screencasts/web_development.html
>
> Much of it was originally elisp but is now ruby via el4r (I'm a much better
> ruby programmer than elisp programmer).
>
> --Craig
>
>

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Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Mark A. Hershberger]

Craig Muth <craig.muth@gmail.com> writes:

> Interested in hearing your feedback about my framework.  It adds free-form
> wiki and tree features (and many others) to emacs.

Looks like you're reproducing OrgMode (http://orgmode.org/). Why would
an OrgMode user be interested in Xiki?

Mark.

-- 
http://hexmode.com/

The only alternative to Tradition is bad tradition.
                          — Jaraslov Pelikan

Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Craig Muth]

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> Looks like you're reproducing OrgMode (http://orgmode.org/).

There's definitely some overlap, but a large amount that doesn't overlap, I
think.  (I'm no authority on org mode though.)  Xiki doesn't do the cool
scheduling and using a tree as a general html or latex editor stuff, for
example.  And I don't think OrgMode has much in the way of general
filesystem navigation or searching features, though I could easily be
mistaken.  Xiki has a free-form wiki syntax for navigable file trees, file
contents, searches, and running shell commands in them such as:

- /tmp/
  - foo/
    - foot.txt
      | Some lines in the file
      | Some lines in the file
  ! ls -l
  - ##food/
    - fool/
      - foof.txt
        | A line that contains "food"
        | Another food line lower down in the file

(The "-" bullets are optional, but allow you to use the mouse to
expand/collapse.)

If you watch the web development screencast (
http://xiki.org/screencasts/web_development.html) I think you'll recognize
many things that aren't in or differ quite a bit from org mode.  Also the 2
screencasts show only a subset of features in xiki.  If there's interest
there are about 6 more screencasts I could do.

Where there is overlap (taking notes, etc) xiki takes a very different,
less-structured approach.

> Why would an OrgMode user be interested in Xiki?

There are some innovative things in xiki that could potentially be borrowed
and merged into org mode, at the very least.

I don't foresee many OrgMode users switching to xiki.  Though, any features
could probably augment each other quite nicely.  Like having your notes in
Org's format and building up xiki filesystem trees within them.  Or, maybe
just using xiki's plugins to generate Merb/Rails apps and browse/maniplate
couchdb, for example, or to control Firefox (reloading, sending javascript
to it etc.)  or committing to git during web development.

Emacs has a lot of respect / adoption in the ruby community.  Among emacs
users who find themselves more proficient in ruby than elisp and have
interest in using their code/gems/apps within emacs (a potent combination) I
think xiki will be interesting.  Note xiki owes much of its ruby-interaction
features to el4r, which it's built on top of.  If you have simple ruby code
that accesses an api it is trivial to create a tree-based UI, like the ones
for git/couchdb/merb that are shown in the screencasts.

--Craig


On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Mark A. Hershberger <mah@everybody.org>wrote:

> Craig Muth <craig.muth@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Interested in hearing your feedback about my framework.  It adds
> free-form
> > wiki and tree features (and many others) to emacs.
>
> Looks like you're reproducing OrgMode (http://orgmode.org/). Why would
> an OrgMode user be interested in Xiki?
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> http://hexmode.com/
>
> The only alternative to Tradition is bad tradition.
>                          — Jaraslov Pelikan
>

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Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Craig Muth]

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Here's an example of a xiki tree you might build up when working in some
elisp files.  Could be useful for communicating about code on mailing lists
like this one.  Forgive me if org mode (or something else) already does
this.  If so please enlighten me - I'd be interested in checking it out.

- /usr/share/emacs22/
  - lisp/
    - isearch.el
      | (defun isearch-forward (&optional regexp-p no-recursive-edit)
        | Type \\[isearch-yank-char] to yank char from buffer onto end of
search\
        | (defun isearch-mode (forward &optional regexp op-fun
recursive-edit word-p)
          | (defvar isearch-mode-map
            |     (define-key map "\M-\C-y" 'isearch-yank-char)
              - Not recognizing var:
              | (defun isearch-yank-char (&optional arg)

      + all lines using the map: ##isearch-mode-map/

    - You can see it compiles:
    ! ls -l
      ! -rw-r--r--    1 craig  admin    97058 Feb  2 11:58 isearch.el
      ! -rw-r--r--    1 craig  admin    66540 Feb  2 11:58 isearch.elc

  - site-lisp/
    - session.el
      | (defcustom session-registers '((?0 . ?9) ?- ?= ?\\ ?` region (?a .
?z))
        - Todo: want to include this:
        |   CHAR or (FROM . TO) or `file' or `region' or t.

Such trees are navigable in any buffer/file (you can just paste in the
tree), though in note-mode they will be colorized.

Normally you build up these trees (using keyboard shortcuts) for your self,
for navigation while you're working and for reference later.  You can also
send them to other people, and they can use them to navigate (possibly
changing the /usr/share/emacs22/ line first if appropriate).

Note you can C-. (or C-enter, or double-click) on dirs to expand and show
their files, on files to open them or expand their contents, on lines within
files to jump to them, on the "!" line to run the command, and on the "##"
line to expand the search (searches expand out into a sub-tree).  The "-
foo:" lines are ignored, and are just there for notes.  The whitespace
before the "| ..." lines is insignificant, so you can indent to represent
the call hierarchy.

--Craig

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Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Mark A. Hershberger]

Craig Muth <craig.muth@gmail.com> writes:

> Here's an example of a xiki tree you might build up when working in some
> elisp files.  Could be useful for communicating about code on mailing lists
> like this one.  Forgive me if org mode (or something else) already does
> this.  If so please enlighten me - I'd be interested in checking it
> out.

It's hard for me to see exactly what is going on, but it doesn't look
like anything that OrgMode isn't already doing or could be made to do
with a SMOP.

Look at Emacs Starter Kit
(http://eschulte.github.com/emacs-starter-kit/) for an example of how
you can mix OrgMode markup and Emacs Lisp, for example.

Mark.

-- 
http://hexmode.com/

The only alternative to Tradition is bad tradition.
                          — Jaraslov Pelikan

Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Craig Muth]

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> it doesn't look like anything that OrgMode isn't already
> doing or could be made to do with a SMOP

Hmm, really?  Did you watch both screencasts?

  http://xiki.org/screencasts/web_development.html
  http://xiki.org/screencasts/wiki_syntax.html

Please point me to the part of OrgMode with features for navigating and
searching the filesystem in a tree structure.  I'm interested in checking it
out and comparing it to xiki.

> an example of how you can mix OrgMode markup and Emacs Lisp

It sounds like you might be thinking that the lisp in that my tree was to be
executed.  That's not the case, it's for navigation (you use the tree to
jump to those lines in the files).

--Craig



On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Mark A. Hershberger <mah@everybody.org>wrote:

> Craig Muth <craig.muth@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Here's an example of a xiki tree you might build up when working in some
> > elisp files.  Could be useful for communicating about code on mailing
> lists
> > like this one.  Forgive me if org mode (or something else) already does
> > this.  If so please enlighten me - I'd be interested in checking it
> > out.
>
> It's hard for me to see exactly what is going on, but it doesn't look
> like anything that OrgMode isn't already doing or could be made to do
> with a SMOP.
>
> Look at Emacs Starter Kit
> (http://eschulte.github.com/emacs-starter-kit/) for an example of how
> you can mix OrgMode markup and Emacs Lisp, for example.
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> http://hexmode.com/
>
> The only alternative to Tradition is bad tradition.
>                          — Jaraslov Pelikan
>

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Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Richard Stallman]

    Please point me to the part of OrgMode with features for
    navigating and searching the filesystem in a tree structure.  I'm
    interested in checking i= t out and comparing it to xiki.

The question that suggests itself to me
is whether there is a way to separate out the various ideas,
implemented by xiki and by Org mode, into modular features.

Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Štěpán Němec]

On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 01:22:29PM -0500, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> Craig Muth <craig.muth@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Interested in hearing your feedback about my framework.  It adds free-form
> > wiki and tree features (and many others) to emacs.
> 
> Looks like you're reproducing OrgMode (http://orgmode.org/). Why would
> an OrgMode user be interested in Xiki?

Actually, I see more similarity to Eev (<http://angg.twu.net/eev-article.html>)
than Org.

Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[Glauber Alex Dias Prado]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Please point me to the part of OrgMode with features for
>     navigating and searching the filesystem in a tree structure.  I'm
>     interested in checking i= t out and comparing it to xiki.
>
> The question that suggests itself to me
> is whether there is a way to separate out the various ideas,
> implemented by xiki and by Org mode, into modular features.

Just to tell my grandchildren that once i was in the same thread as rms
:), these two tools are awesome and i am using both, and would take
advantage of a more modular design for easy integration instead of each
one working in its own pet.

cheers,
glauber.


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Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)

[joakim]

Glauber Alex Dias Prado <smade4@gmail.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>     Please point me to the part of OrgMode with features for
>>     navigating and searching the filesystem in a tree structure.  I'm
>>     interested in checking i= t out and comparing it to xiki.
>>
>> The question that suggests itself to me
>> is whether there is a way to separate out the various ideas,
>> implemented by xiki and by Org mode, into modular features.
>
> Just to tell my grandchildren that once i was in the same thread as rms
> :), these two tools are awesome and i am using both, and would take
> advantage of a more modular design for easy integration instead of each
> one working in its own pet.

Just a data-point, but I've been using planner-mode for years, which
resembles Org-mode, and also seemingly Xiki, which I havent tried yet.

Planner uses Muse as its underlying wiki mode, and Muse is included in
Emacs.

As a user, I would also favor modularisation and re-use between these
modes.


>
> cheers,
> glauber.
>
-- 
Joakim Verona