From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, andreas.roehler@online.de,
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 16:47:18 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <875zcqxord.fsf@red-bean.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <768d3caa-8eed-457b-90e1-143d18020201@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 15 May 2020 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT)")
On 15 May 2020, Drew Adams wrote:
>> A perfect analogy is manual ("stick") transmission cars versus
>> automatic transmission cars. A stick car is harder for a newcomer to
>> drive, but gives an experienced user more control than she would
>> otherwise have. An automatic transmission car is easier for a
>> newcomer, but frustrating for the expert because it limits (a bit) what
>> she can do.
>>
>> Does this mean that no one learns to drive stick? Of course not. Some
>> people do so by choice -- they make a conscious investment, made with
>> the understanding that driving will be *harder* for a while before
>> there is any discernable payoff. But they are willing to make that
>> choice because others told them how it would be worth it. It's not
>> something the user would find out from reading the manual for the car,
>> though.
>
>The analogy is pretty good (not perfect). The last
>sentence doesn't correspond to Emacs, though, I think.
>
>You _can_ learn Emacs by reading its manuals and its
>help (`C-h'). Asking Emacs is a good way to learn.
>Maybe not as good as the expert-over-your-shoulder
>method you cited, but pretty good.
Ah, you seem to think I was saying "no one learns how to drive stick by reading the manual".
But that's not what I was saying. I was saying that you don't find out from the manual *why* driving stick might be worth it for you -- why it might be worth the investment.
Even if the manual were to talk about that, the manual is still not where most people would actually *learn* it from. They would learn it from talking to someone who already drives stick, or from reading an article that discusses the benefits of driving stick and how it takes some investment to do so, or some other source like that.
Learning *the fact that Emacs expects & rewards sustained investment* is different from *learning Emacs*. Learning that you need to make an investment is different from making the investment. I was talking about the former, so I think the analogy holds.
Now, the Emacs manual (and web site) can & should talk about how Emacs requires some investment, and about how it then rewards that investment. But we shouldn't expect those places to be where most people learn this fact. It's a message that has to be spread via other channels.
Best regards,
-Karl
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-05-20 21:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 273+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-05-08 8:26 Making Emacs popular again with a video Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:39 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-10 20:48 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:41 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-10 16:18 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 11:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-10 20:32 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-11 22:59 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-09 7:50 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-10 20:57 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-12 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-12 7:04 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 13:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-12 14:47 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 16:08 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13 4:01 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 8:49 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 5:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 10:22 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15 3:25 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 7:55 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 10:43 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 11:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 19:15 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-15 18:41 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-22 19:09 ` Ben McGinnes
[not found] ` <E1jcLVP-0003SB-II@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-05-24 19:16 ` Ben McGinnes
2020-05-14 14:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14 7:38 ` Tim Cross
2020-05-14 7:51 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-14 14:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14 15:36 ` Tim Cross
2020-05-13 10:43 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-12 8:23 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 3:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 8:18 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 10:53 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-13 16:20 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14 2:18 ` (emacs) Intro [was: Making Emacs popular again with a video] excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-14 12:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 21:31 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15 0:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
[not found] ` <d28fe30d-c192-8022-b758-d8b7019e49b5@yandex.ru-M7KnL6R----2>
2020-05-17 19:11 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-19 14:14 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <d66793e5-07f9-4dd9-928d-e7e8c342b781@default>
[not found] ` <M7iByNw--3-2@tutanota.com>
2020-05-21 18:18 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <M7sSK-m--3-2@tutanota.com-M7sSUVm--3-2>
2020-05-28 1:21 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 7:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-28 7:41 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-28 10:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29 2:39 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29 7:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-29 7:40 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29 15:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-30 1:39 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 22:14 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 6:36 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-12 12:57 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 16:18 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 16:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13 19:39 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 20:05 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 20:52 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 22:04 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 22:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 4:56 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 16:37 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14 22:11 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15 3:16 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 21:42 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15 22:14 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-16 0:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-15 22:41 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:47 ` Karl Fogel [this message]
2020-05-20 22:35 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-21 0:35 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-16 2:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-18 3:46 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 11:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 8:05 ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-16 10:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 10:46 ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-17 1:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 1:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 1:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 1:59 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 2:52 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 9:32 ` Joost Kremers
2020-05-17 11:07 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18 3:43 ` transient Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 6:58 ` transient Joost Kremers
2020-05-18 11:29 ` transient Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 18:41 ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-18 19:35 ` transient John Yates
2020-05-18 19:57 ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-19 5:38 ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19 14:00 ` transient Arthur Miller
2020-05-20 3:14 ` transient Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-19 22:04 ` transient Stefan Kangas
2020-05-19 22:53 ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19 4:02 ` which-key Richard Stallman
2020-05-17 7:09 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:36 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 21:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 22:00 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:07 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21 8:03 ` tomas
2020-05-21 9:33 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 10:04 ` tomas
2020-05-24 14:05 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 16:20 ` xristos
2020-05-24 13:45 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-24 16:52 ` xristos
2020-05-24 17:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-24 18:31 ` Philip K.
2020-05-25 17:34 ` João Távora
2020-05-26 4:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-26 11:32 ` João Távora
2020-05-27 3:08 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-27 5:01 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 12:59 ` Arthur Miller
2020-06-23 3:59 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-21 17:07 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-23 20:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 6:26 ` tomas
2020-05-14 6:16 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-15 3:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 0:56 ` Tak Kunihiro
2020-05-16 6:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 9:10 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 10:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:24 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:34 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 13:57 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 19:35 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:05 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-16 20:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:44 ` Bob Newell
2020-06-24 15:37 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-05-16 23:12 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:18 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:47 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 1:14 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 3:13 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 6:49 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 7:02 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 7:11 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 9:07 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 10:20 ` Marcin Borkowski
2020-05-17 11:07 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 15:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-17 15:48 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 17:06 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 17:31 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17 18:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 20:03 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18 8:32 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 13:02 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 13:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 16:31 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-18 23:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19 8:41 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 1:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 9:06 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 0:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21 9:07 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 23:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22 9:31 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-25 2:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-26 8:06 ` martin rudalics
2020-06-05 2:40 ` pop-up-mini-mode, was " Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19 8:40 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 0:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 9:04 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 13:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 14:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 14:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 16:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 17:45 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 18:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 18:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 19:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 19:53 ` tomas
2020-05-20 21:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21 7:43 ` tomas
2020-05-21 2:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 22:19 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22 7:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-22 12:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 23:07 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 13:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 17:55 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 15:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-19 8:41 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 18:19 ` Suppressing beginning/end-of-buffer error messages (WAS: GNU Emacs raison d'etre) Noam Postavsky
2020-05-22 9:30 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-22 12:46 ` Noam Postavsky
[not found] ` <11bfe86b-131c-4f55-5125-c269a73e360d@gmx.at>
2020-05-23 11:10 ` Noam Postavsky
2020-05-17 18:36 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-17 21:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:48 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 8:33 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 17:59 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:07 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 7:54 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-17 11:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 18:11 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:01 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17 2:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 4:12 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 5:51 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-28 6:13 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-28 14:12 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 14:42 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 16:34 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 14:44 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 15:00 ` Philip K.
2020-05-28 15:13 ` João Távora
2020-05-28 16:04 ` T.V Raman
[not found] ` <p914ks0kpui.fsf@google.com-M8R14r9----2>
2020-05-28 16:12 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 16:46 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-28 17:34 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 18:11 ` andres.ramirez
[not found] ` <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com-M8RLd3p--3-2>
2020-05-28 18:28 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29 1:12 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-30 1:44 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-30 2:02 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-30 9:13 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-30 16:43 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-05-31 7:07 ` Richard Stallman
2020-06-08 17:37 ` REmacs was " T.V Raman
2020-06-01 7:29 ` Meaning behind Control-G Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 7:56 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 9:06 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 13:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02 1:51 ` Paul Eggert
2020-06-02 5:58 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-02 13:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02 15:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-06-02 11:46 ` John Yates
2020-07-10 12:13 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Lars Brinkhoff
2020-07-10 14:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-07-11 2:16 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 16:41 ` FW: " Drew Adams
2020-05-28 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-28 20:33 ` Perry E. Metzger
2020-05-28 23:44 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-29 3:04 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 19:46 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-13 21:00 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 21:02 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 22:22 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-14 4:20 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 0:04 ` John Wiegley
2020-05-14 5:08 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 20:29 ` Karl Fogel
[not found] <64c4b2e4-3c07-0ad4-bcdf-39e95cae8a57.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-09 17:11 ` Clive Tovero
2020-08-10 1:26 ` Alexandre Garreau
[not found] <c0ffdaa1-90cc-2bb3-d2e0-93c7115df969.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-10 2:49 ` Clive Tovero
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