From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 16:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: <875zcqxord.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> <874ksglvsd.fsf@red-bean.com> <768d3caa-8eed-457b-90e1-143d18020201@default> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="4987"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, andreas.roehler@online.de, Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 20 23:48:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWZS-0001CO-4K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 23:48:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38118 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWZR-0003Yd-34 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:48:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51320) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWYe-0002Pk-Q1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:47:24 -0400 Original-Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:48566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWYd-0003Jk-D4; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:47:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=+fMtF+WN/hZKoqS35DHJ7M3n9p5yI8dRCrOBK+Mc240=; t=1590011242; x=1591220842; b=G28mR6aH/7avnZn8Q1y8qlW4ir+941TlHA+xs+LrilGt7vbWPVBJQLs+fu3/94sMj4al1keT4G u2bkokkQZzGIb9ZF5C9JWj+kpC35xEt03uQ2AyDoXGZkQY3uV3uIdGJWuQ51QkMEzJRXnidEqUbS2 p1zGgOa0Walobv9HJL3RMJzRBjyBuG1zReyvIRUeOgMomm1cllpPh+2e10rsXXhbEJAWVXPqd/j4W qFCQfpD/mXqiUa8sPE1vkYDR7iNpYLuib/VSbhXHMfmhR/JRwlq4RplPl5baoJqO5RHJLeyali3wN Ad2CJhTjTvYWBEbvW4CLrG2E59wxiKyh6kJbw==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:58944 helo=floss) by newsp.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWYZ-0002D1-BF; Wed, 20 May 2020 21:47:19 +0000 In-Reply-To: <768d3caa-8eed-457b-90e1-143d18020201@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 15 May 2020 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT)") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=newsp.red-bean.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/20 17:36:56 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251121 Archived-At: On 15 May 2020, Drew Adams wrote: >> A perfect analogy is manual ("stick") transmission cars versus >> automatic transmission cars. A stick car is harder for a newcomer to >> drive, but gives an experienced user more control than she would >> otherwise have. An automatic transmission car is easier for a >> newcomer, but frustrating for the expert because it limits (a bit) what >> she can do. >> >> Does this mean that no one learns to drive stick? Of course not. Some >> people do so by choice -- they make a conscious investment, made with >> the understanding that driving will be *harder* for a while before >> there is any discernable payoff. But they are willing to make that >> choice because others told them how it would be worth it. It's not >> something the user would find out from reading the manual for the car, >> though. > >The analogy is pretty good (not perfect). The last >sentence doesn't correspond to Emacs, though, I think. > >You _can_ learn Emacs by reading its manuals and its >help (`C-h'). Asking Emacs is a good way to learn. >Maybe not as good as the expert-over-your-shoulder >method you cited, but pretty good. Ah, you seem to think I was saying "no one learns how to drive stick by reading the manual". But that's not what I was saying. I was saying that you don't find out from the manual *why* driving stick might be worth it for you -- why it might be worth the investment. Even if the manual were to talk about that, the manual is still not where most people would actually *learn* it from. They would learn it from talking to someone who already drives stick, or from reading an article that discusses the benefits of driving stick and how it takes some investment to do so, or some other source like that. Learning *the fact that Emacs expects & rewards sustained investment* is different from *learning Emacs*. Learning that you need to make an investment is different from making the investment. I was talking about the former, so I think the analogy holds. Now, the Emacs manual (and web site) can & should talk about how Emacs requires some investment, and about how it then rewards that investment. But we shouldn't expect those places to be where most people learn this fact. It's a message that has to be spread via other channels. Best regards, -Karl