Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Eli Zaretskii]

Stefan,

This change is incorrect: the "All/Top/Bot/NN%" part is NOT "buffer
position".  If you have a suggestion for better description than "Size
indication mode", please tell; otherwise, let's leave the original
description intact.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> This change is incorrect: the "All/Top/Bot/NN%" part is NOT "buffer
> position".  If you have a suggestion for better description than "Size
> indication mode", please tell; otherwise, let's leave the original
> description intact.

The original was even more incorrect, as it had nothing to do with
"Size indication mode".  Let me think about an alternative.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > This change is incorrect: the "All/Top/Bot/NN%" part is NOT "buffer
> > position".  If you have a suggestion for better description than "Size
> > indication mode", please tell; otherwise, let's leave the original
> > description intact.
>
> The original was even more incorrect, as it had nothing to do with
> "Size indication mode".  Let me think about an alternative.

The info node "(emacs) Mode Line" says "POS tells you whether there is
additional text above the top of the window, or below the bottom."
The info node "(emacs) Optional Mode Line" says "The buffer percentage
POS indicates the percentage of the buffer above the top of the
window."

In the doc string for mode-line-format we have:

  %p -- print percent of buffer above top of window, or Top, Bot or All.
  %P -- print percent of buffer above bottom of window, perhaps plus Top,
        or print Bottom or All.

I could not find any other documentation of this feature.  Did I miss something?

I guess "Percent of buffer above top of window, or Top, Bot or All" is
pretty hopeless as far as a user-facing description goes.  In
particular, it doesn't say what any of it means.

Based on the documentation I could find, I can only suggest "Buffer
Percentage Position" or, if you prefer, "Buffer Percentage POS", the
latter of which exactly matches the description of this in the info
node "(emacs) Optional Mode Line".  But I'm not sure that this is
better than "Buffer Position".

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 10:28:01 +0200
> Cc: Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> In the doc string for mode-line-format we have:
> 
>   %p -- print percent of buffer above top of window, or Top, Bot or All.
>   %P -- print percent of buffer above bottom of window, perhaps plus Top,
>         or print Bottom or All.
> 
> I could not find any other documentation of this feature.  Did I miss something?
> 
> I guess "Percent of buffer above top of window, or Top, Bot or All" is
> pretty hopeless as far as a user-facing description goes.  In
> particular, it doesn't say what any of it means.
> 
> Based on the documentation I could find, I can only suggest "Buffer
> Percentage Position" or, if you prefer, "Buffer Percentage POS", the
> latter of which exactly matches the description of this in the info
> node "(emacs) Optional Mode Line".  But I'm not sure that this is
> better than "Buffer Position".

How about "Buffer text percentage"?

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Andreas Schwab]

How about "Viewport Position"?

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 10:52:22 +0200
> 
> How about "Viewport Position"?

I think we should include "percentage" there, since more often than
not this is what we display.  "Position" alone is generally a simple
number, not expressed in percents.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Omar Polo]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 10:52:22 +0200
>> 
>> How about "Viewport Position"?
>
> I think we should include "percentage" there, since more often than
> not this is what we display.  "Position" alone is generally a simple
> number, not expressed in percents.

just wondering, "scroll percentage" or "scroll position" was considered?

It seems simpler and more intuitive than the "whether there is
additional text above the top of the window, or below the bottom" and
"percentage of the buffer above the top of the window" formula used in
the manual.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Andreas Schwab]

On Okt 09 2021, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 10:52:22 +0200
>> 
>> How about "Viewport Position"?
>
> I think we should include "percentage" there, since more often than
> not this is what we display.  "Position" alone is generally a simple
> number, not expressed in percents.

The position ends in %, so it is clear that it is a percentage.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

RE: [External] : Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Drew Adams]

> This change is incorrect: the "All/Top/Bot/NN%" part is NOT "buffer
> position".  If you have a suggestion for better description than "Size
> indication mode", please tell; otherwise, let's leave the original
> description intact.

IMO: 

It should be "size", and it should not say more than that.
In particular, we should not mention "percentage".

It's about showing something about the size of buffer
text.  (We already dynamically adjust the size to
reflect a buffer restriction.)
___

FWIW, in my library `modeline-posn.el', I've extended
this to optionally provide different size indications.

You can optionally show the size of the active region.
In addition to the # of lines & columns, you can
optionally show the # of words & chars in the region.

If the region is a rectangle, in addition to the # of
rows & columns you can optionally show the # of words
& chars.  (And in this case the count includes only
words that are entirely inside the rectangle.)

All of this is about "size".  (The library enhances
variable`mode-line-position', so "position" is in the
name, but it and that variable are more correctly
about size.)

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ModeLinePosition

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Stefan Kangas]

So far, we have these suggestions:

    "Buffer Percentage Position"
    "Buffer Percentage POS"
    "Buffer text percentage"
    "Viewport Position"
    "Scroll percentage"
    "Scroll position"

Regarding position/percentage, Eli said that it could be good to include
as this is more common, but Andreas points out that it should be clear
already since it ends in %.  So it's not really clear that one argument
is obviously better than the other; on the one hand the risk is not very
high for misunderstandings, on the other we don't need to go out of our
way to avoid repetitions too much in tooltips (we already repeat
ourselves a lot in them).

Having thought about the various alternatives for a bit, my suggestion
is this:

    "Window Scroll Position"

It seems to capture that this is more about the window ("viewport" is
accurate but not a term we normally use) than about the buffer itself.
Buffer position seems to suggest that this has to do with the position
of point, which we already have the column/line number display for.

It will also avoid the problem that someone sees "Top" or "Bot", but the
tooltip incorrectly says that it is a "Percentage".

Does this sound like an acceptable conclusion to this discussion?

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:33:43 -0700
> Cc: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Having thought about the various alternatives for a bit, my suggestion
> is this:
> 
>     "Window Scroll Position"
> 
> It seems to capture that this is more about the window ("viewport" is
> accurate but not a term we normally use) than about the buffer itself.
> Buffer position seems to suggest that this has to do with the position
> of point, which we already have the column/line number display for.
> 
> It will also avoid the problem that someone sees "Top" or "Bot", but the
> tooltip incorrectly says that it is a "Percentage".
> 
> Does this sound like an acceptable conclusion to this discussion?

No, because "position" in Emacs is too tightly coupled with a simple
number that is a buffer position.  Just look at our usage of that term
in the documentation.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> No, because "position" in Emacs is too tightly coupled with a simple
> number that is a buffer position.  Just look at our usage of that term
> in the documentation.

So which of the proposed alternatives, or variation thereof, do you
prefer instead?

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> So which of the proposed alternatives, or variation thereof, do you
> prefer instead?

Is "Window Scroll Percentage" acceptable?

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:56:13 +0200
> Cc: Omar Polo <op@omarpolo.com>, Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>, 
> 	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > No, because "position" in Emacs is too tightly coupled with a simple
> > number that is a buffer position.  Just look at our usage of that term
> > in the documentation.
> 
> So which of the proposed alternatives, or variation thereof, do you
> prefer instead?

The first one" Buffer Percentage Position".  "Viewport Percentage
Position" is also fine, although it wasn't really in your list.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:58:57 +0200
> Cc: Omar Polo <op@omarpolo.com>, Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>, 
> 	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
> 
> > So which of the proposed alternatives, or variation thereof, do you
> > prefer instead?
> 
> Is "Window Scroll Percentage" acceptable?

Yes, I think so.

Re: emacs-28 47cbd10: * lisp/bindings.el (mode-line-position): Improve tooltip.

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Is "Window Scroll Percentage" acceptable?
>
> Yes, I think so.

Thanks, I pushed that change to emacs-28 (commit 44ce50b0df).