Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs?

[Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>]

> From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
> Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu,  johnw@gnu.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:42:30 -0600
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >I don't even need to explain that: there are already people in this
> >discussion who said they'd like to use a less formal format.  (You
> >already asked who those people were, and Dmitry already pointed out
> >who they were.)  To me, the connection is very clear.  If you don't
> >see it, just trust the facts -- it is already happening.
> 
> I've worked in projects where we successfully enforce ChangeLog-style commit message conventions without having actual ChangeLog files.  If the Emacs project is having a social problem enforcing conventions, that's certainly something to be solved.  But blaming it on the absence of ChangeLog files does not hold up empirically.

I'm not blaming anything.  I'm just saying that having ChangeLog files
seems so far to be the cheapest solution to a conundrum.

I don't know what project you have in mind, but IME the only way to
_force_ something in a Free Software project is to have a very
charismatic leader to whose opinions all the rest heed.  That's a rare
case to see, and it certainly isn't our situation here.

> >IOW, it's fortress -- if you dismantle one of its bastions, the others
> >will soon fall as well.  The only way to avoid that is to hold all of
> >them.
> 
> Okay, I understand your argument (I don't think your previous messages made it clear, but you've clarified it now).  However, it just does not hold true in other projects.  Why would we expect Emacs developers to be more slovenly than developers elsewhere?

Because they in fact are?  What can I say? just look around.

> English is my native language, by the way; I'm American, not German.

Apologies.  Then the problem is mine alone.

> FWIW, I couldn't tell from your writing that English is not your native language.

Yes, my disguise is good.  But it's just a disguise, believe me.

> I think this project can successfully enforce ChangeLog-style entries in commit messages if we really want to, without much difficulty.

I don't know why you think so, since we are already failing to do
that.  I agree that it should be possible in theory, but we don't seem
to live up to that.

> I believe this is also what Paul was saying, though I don't want to put words in his mouth.

Paul actually said that it was not a disaster if the log messages were
less than perfect.  (His own are, of course, very good, I wish
everyone would write similar log messages.)