* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.
@ 2014-10-26 15:53 Alan Mackenzie
2014-10-26 16:00 ` Ivan Shmakov
` (4 more replies)
0 siblings, 5 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2014-10-26 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 18844
Hello, Emacs.
With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs -Q.
Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word "setq" is
spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line
2014-10-26 15:53 bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line Alan Mackenzie
@ 2014-10-26 16:00 ` Ivan Shmakov
2014-10-26 16:32 ` Drew Adams
[not found] ` <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Ivan Shmakov @ 2014-10-26 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 18844
>>>>> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs
> -Q. Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word "setq" is
> spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
> This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.
By a chance, does it still happen if you disable
global-eldoc-mode?
--
FSF associate member #7257 http://boycottsystemd.org/ … 3013 B6A0 230E 334A
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line
2014-10-26 16:00 ` Ivan Shmakov
@ 2014-10-26 16:32 ` Drew Adams
2014-10-27 9:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2014-10-26 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 18844
> > -Q. Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word
> > "setq" is spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
>
> > This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.
It happens on MS Windows also.
> By a chance, does it still happen if you disable
> global-eldoc-mode?
That gets rid of it; thanks. Please turn this OFF by default.
This was pushed onto the trunk before any real discussion. Limited
discussion ensued - about the missing doc for it - AFTER the fact:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg01771.html
And in that discussion, Stefan said clearly that "this change in
behavior was not intended." There was no real discussion of this
mode-line takeover. As Eli said there, "I don't think turning this
on by default in eval-minibuffer was ever seriously discussed."
And Stefan concurred, saying that the only discussion was "about
making eldoc work in the minibuffer, not about enabling it."
But after that, in the same thread, Stefan said, "Feel free to add
it as soon as we re-open the trunk for changes." Just add it - no
discussion. Dommage.
Someone's favorite shiny new toy should not be foisted on all
users as changed default behavior. It took decades for
`transient-mark-mode' to finally be turned on by default, after
*much* discussion in emacs-devel. Should have happened a lot
sooner, yes(!) - but still only after a thorough discussion.
`delete-selection-mode' as default is still probably years off.
Why should this mode-line takeover be imposed suddenly with no
real discussion? Never would have happened in "the good ol'
days".
It is not hard for a user to turn such behavior ON, if desired.
Why should it now be the default? Have you seen zillions of
users demanding that this be the default behavior or something?
Did you take a user poll, as RMS would likely advise?
What is behind this, besides someone's desire to impose personal
preferences on everyone?
Let those who want to try it turn it on and experiment with it.
Maybe after a few years we can discuss whether it merits being
turned on by default, if many people clearly are using it at
that point. Turning it on now without discussion is premature
and anti-user/community.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line
2014-10-26 16:32 ` Drew Adams
@ 2014-10-27 9:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-10-27 15:25 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2014-10-27 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 18844
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> That gets rid of it; thanks. Please turn this OFF by default.
It's a great feature, please keep it on.
We've seen some votes in favor of it already too. If it annoys the
majority of users, we'll see a lot more of dissenting voices.
And Emacs trunk is a good place to experiment with new features, which
won't necesarily make it into release.
> Let those who want to try it turn it on and experiment with it.
> Maybe after a few years we can discuss whether it merits being
> turned on by default, if many people clearly are using it at
> that point. Turning it on now without discussion is premature
> and anti-user/community.
Nobody really has to use it for a few years to decide if they like it or
not. And there's no need for a years-long discussion about it either,
it's not that big a feature.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line
2014-10-27 9:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
@ 2014-10-27 15:25 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2014-10-27 15:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: 18844
> > That gets rid of it; thanks. Please turn this OFF by default.
>
> It's a great feature, please keep it on.
Even if you, as one user, think it is a great feature, why should
it suddenly be *on by default*.
> We've seen some votes in favor of it already too. If it annoys the
> majority of users, we'll see a lot more of dissenting voices.
*Seen some votes* means nothing. Not seeing "a lot more" dissenting
voices means nothing also.
> And Emacs trunk is a good place to experiment with new features,
> which won't necesarily make it into release.
People can experiment with new features without Emacs turning them
on by default. And that is generally what is done.
> > Let those who want to try it turn it on and experiment with it.
> > Maybe after a few years we can discuss whether it merits being
> > turned on by default, if many people clearly are using it at
> > that point. Turning it on now without discussion is premature
> > and anti-user/community.
>
> Nobody really has to use it for a few years to decide if they like
> it or not.
Right. But a user deciding whether s?he likes it or not is not
what this is about, is it? You are requesting that this be turned
for *all* users, by *default*.
> And there's no need for a years-long discussion about it
> either, it's not that big a feature.
It's not that big a feature => don't turn it on by default.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>]
* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line
[not found] ` <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
@ 2014-10-26 16:12 ` Alan Mackenzie
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2014-10-26 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ivan Shmakov; +Cc: 18844
In article <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> you wrote:
>>>>>> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> > With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs
> > -Q. Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word "setq" is
> > spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
> > This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.
> By a chance, does it still happen if you disable
> global-eldoc-mode?
:-) If I disable global-eldoc-mode, the problem goes away.
> --
> FSF associate member #7257 http://boycottsystemd.org/ ? 3013 B6A0 230E 334A
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.
2014-10-26 15:53 bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line Alan Mackenzie
2014-10-26 16:00 ` Ivan Shmakov
[not found] ` <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
@ 2014-10-26 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-10-26 17:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2014-10-26 17:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-10-26 17:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
4 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-10-26 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: 18844
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:53:32 +0000
> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
>
> With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs -Q.
> Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word "setq" is
> spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
It's a feature: Emacs shows you some minimal documentation on what you
type.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.
2014-10-26 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-10-26 17:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2014-10-26 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 18844
Hello, Eli.
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 06:23:15PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:53:32 +0000
> > From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
> > With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs -Q.
> > Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word "setq" is
> > spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
> It's a feature: Emacs shows you some minimal documentation on what you
> type.
Ah. It's a feature. It just looks like a bug, and was somewhat
unexpected.
I'll close the bug, then (unless somebody else has already done so).
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.
2014-10-26 15:53 bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line Alan Mackenzie
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2014-10-26 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-10-26 17:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-10-26 17:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
4 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-10-26 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Mackenzie; +Cc: 18844
> Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second. The word "setq" is
> spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
If only "setq" is echoed, then it's a bug.
If "setq: ([SYM VAL]...)" is echoed (or something similar), then it's
a feature.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.
2014-10-26 15:53 bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line Alan Mackenzie
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2014-10-26 17:10 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2014-10-26 17:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
4 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2014-10-26 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 18844-done
Closed, as it is a feature, not a bug.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <<20141026155332.GB4397@acm.acm>]
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2014-10-26 15:53 bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line Alan Mackenzie
2014-10-26 16:00 ` Ivan Shmakov
2014-10-26 16:32 ` Drew Adams
2014-10-27 9:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-10-27 15:25 ` Drew Adams
[not found] ` <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2014-10-26 16:12 ` Alan Mackenzie
2014-10-26 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-10-26 17:00 ` Alan Mackenzie
2014-10-26 17:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-10-26 17:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
[not found] <<20141026155332.GB4397@acm.acm>
[not found] ` <<83ioj64x70.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-10-26 16:33 ` Drew Adams
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