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* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
@ 2021-02-19  9:39 Stefan Kangas
  2021-02-19 12:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2021-02-19  9:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 46633

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Severity: wishlist

I suggest that we talk about mailing lists ahead of Usenet newsgroups in
the FAQ, as mailing lists is likely to be the most common way of
accessing Emacs discussions these days.

Please find attached a patch.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Prefer-mailing-lists-to-newsgroups-in-FAQ.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 8850 bytes --]

From fbca25cede25a6840156ced4ae59f79b9416c6e1 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 09:51:01 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ

* doc/misc/efaq.texi (Real meaning of copyleft)
(Guidelines for mailing list postings, Mailing list archives)
(Packages that do not come with Emacs): Prefer mailing lists to
newsgroups.
---
 doc/misc/efaq.texi | 114 ++++++++++++++++++++++-----------------------
 1 file changed, 55 insertions(+), 59 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/efaq.texi b/doc/misc/efaq.texi
index f26ae63778..6fb1a08a9e 100644
--- a/doc/misc/efaq.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/efaq.texi
@@ -323,8 +323,8 @@ General questions
 
 @menu
 * Real meaning of copyleft::
-* Guidelines for newsgroup postings::
-* Newsgroup archives::
+* Guidelines for mailing list postings::
+* Mailing list archives::
 * Reporting bugs::
 * Unsubscribing from Emacs lists::
 * Contacting the FSF::
@@ -343,9 +343,10 @@ Real meaning of copyleft
 set any precedents.  Although legal actions have been brought against
 companies for violating the terms of the GPL, so far all have been
 settled out of court (in favor of the plaintiffs).  Please take any
-discussion regarding this issue to the newsgroup
-@uref{news:gnu.misc.discuss}, which was created to hold the extensive
-flame wars on the subject.
+discussion regarding this issue to
+@uref{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss, the
+gnu-misc-discuss mailing list}, which was created to hold the
+extensive flame wars on the subject.
 
 RMS writes:
 
@@ -359,49 +360,55 @@ Real meaning of copyleft
 recipients the same freedom that you enjoyed.
 @end quotation
 
-@node Guidelines for newsgroup postings
-@section  What are appropriate messages for the various Emacs newsgroups?
+@node Guidelines for mailing list postings
+@section  What are appropriate messages for the various Emacs mailing lists?
 @cindex Newsgroups, appropriate messages for
 @cindex GNU newsgroups, appropriate messages for
+@cindex GNU mailing lists, appropriate messages for
 @cindex Usenet groups, appropriate messages for
 @cindex Mailing lists, appropriate messages for
-@cindex Posting messages to newsgroups
+@cindex Posting messages to mailing lists
 
 @cindex GNU mailing lists
 The Emacs mailing lists are described at
 @uref{https://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=emacs, the Emacs Savannah
-page}. Some of them are gatewayed to newsgroups.
-
-The newsgroup @uref{news:comp.emacs} is for discussion of Emacs programs
-in general.  The newsgroup @uref{news:gnu.emacs.help} is specifically
-for GNU Emacs.  It therefore makes no sense to cross-post to both
-groups, since only one can be appropriate to any question.
-
-Messages advocating ``non-free'' software are considered unacceptable on
-any of the @code{gnu.*} newsgroups except for @uref{news:gnu.misc.discuss},
-which was created to hold the extensive flame-wars on the subject.
-``Non-free'' software includes any software for which the end user can't
-freely modify the source code and exchange enhancements.  Be careful to
-remove the @code{gnu.*} groups from the @samp{Newsgroups:} line when
-posting a followup that recommends such software.
-
-@uref{news:gnu.emacs.bug} is a place where bug reports appear, but avoid
-posting bug reports to this newsgroup directly (@pxref{Reporting bugs}).
-
-@node Newsgroup archives
-@section Where can I get old postings to @uref{news:gnu.emacs.help} and other GNU groups?
-@cindex Archived postings from @code{gnu.emacs.help}
-@cindex Usenet archives for GNU groups
-@cindex Old Usenet postings for GNU groups
+page}.
+
+Messages advocating ``non-free'' software are considered unacceptable
+on any of the GNU mailing lists, except for
+@url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss, the
+gnu-misc-discuss mailing list} which was created to hold the extensive
+flame-wars on the subject.
+
+``Non-free'' software includes any software for which the end user
+can't freely modify the source code and exchange enhancements.  Be
+careful to remove any GNU mailing lists from @samp{Cc:} when posting a
+reply that recommends such software.
+
+@url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs, The
+bug-gnu-emacs list} is a place where bug reports appear, but we
+recommend using the commands @kbd{M-x report-emacs-bug} or @kbd{M-x
+submit-emacs-patch} if at all possible (@pxref{Reporting bugs}).
+
+Some GNU mailing lists are gatewayed to (Usenet) newsgroups.
+For example, sending an email to
+@url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs, The
+bug-gnu-emacs list} has the effect of posting on the newsgroup
+@uref{news:gnu.emacs.help}).
+
+@node Mailing list archives
+@section Where can I read archives for @code{help-gnu-emacs} and other GNU lists?
+@cindex Archived postings from @code{help-gnu-emacs}
+@cindex Old mailing list posts for GNU lists
+@cindex Mailing list archives for GNU lists
 
 The FSF has maintained archives of all of the GNU mailing lists for many
 years, although there may be some unintentional gaps in coverage.  The
 archive can be browsed over the web at
 @uref{https://lists.gnu.org/r/, the GNU mail archive}.
 
-Web-based Usenet search services, such as
-@uref{https://groups.google.com/groups/dir?q=gnu&, Google}, also
-archive the @code{gnu.*} groups.
+Some web-based Usenet search services also archive the @code{gnu.*}
+newsgroups.
 
 @node Reporting bugs
 @section Where should I report bugs and other problems with Emacs?
@@ -414,39 +421,25 @@ Reporting bugs
 @kbd{M-x report-emacs-bug}.  It sets up a mail buffer with the
 essential information and the correct e-mail address,
 @email{bug-gnu-emacs@@gnu.org}.
-Anything sent there also appears in the
-newsgroup @uref{news:gnu.emacs.bug}, but please use e-mail instead of
-news to submit the bug report.  This ensures a reliable return address
-so you can be contacted for further details.
 
 Be sure to read the ``Bugs'' section of the Emacs manual before reporting
 a bug!  The manual describes in detail how to submit a useful bug
 report (@pxref{Bugs, , Reporting Bugs, emacs, The GNU Emacs Manual}).
 (@xref{Emacs manual}, if you don't know how to read the manual.)
 
-RMS says:
-
-@quotation
 Sending bug reports to
-@url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs,
-the help-gnu-emacs mailing list}
-(which has the effect of posting on @uref{news:gnu.emacs.help}) is
-undesirable because it takes the time of an unnecessarily large group
-of people, most of whom are just users and have no idea how to fix
-these problem.
-@url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs, The
-bug-gnu-emacs list} reaches a much smaller group of people who are
+@url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs, the
+help-gnu-emacs mailing list} is undesirable because it takes the time
+of an unnecessarily large group of people, most of whom are just users
+and have no idea how to fix these
+problem.  @url{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs,
+The bug-gnu-emacs list} reaches a much smaller group of people who are
 more likely to know what to do and have expressed a wish to receive
 more messages about Emacs than the others.
-@end quotation
-
-RMS says it is sometimes fine to post to @uref{news:gnu.emacs.help}:
 
-@quotation
 If you have reported a bug and you don't hear about a possible fix,
 then after a suitable delay (such as a week) it is okay to post on
-@code{gnu.emacs.help} asking if anyone can help you.
-@end quotation
+@code{help-gnu-emacs@@gnu.org} asking if anyone can help you.
 
 If you are unsure whether you have found a bug, consider the following
 non-exhaustive list, courtesy of RMS:
@@ -458,6 +451,11 @@ Reporting bugs
 does, that is a bug.
 @end quotation
 
+Anything sent to @email{bug-gnu-emacs@@gnu.org} also appears in the
+newsgroup @uref{news:gnu.emacs.bug}, but please use e-mail instead of
+news to submit the bug report.  This ensures a reliable return address
+so you can be contacted for further details.
+
 @node Unsubscribing from Emacs lists
 @section  How do I unsubscribe from a mailing list?
 @cindex Unsubscribing from GNU mailing lists
@@ -3526,10 +3524,8 @@ Packages that do not come with Emacs
 that you stay away from it.
 
 The @uref{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-emacs-sources,
-GNU Emacs sources mailing list}, which is gatewayed to the
-@uref{news:gnu.emacs.sources, Emacs sources newsgroup} (although the
-connection between the two can be unreliable) is an official place
-where people can post or announce their extensions to Emacs.
+GNU Emacs sources mailing list} is an official place where people can
+post or announce their extensions to Emacs.
 
 The @uref{https://emacswiki.org, Emacs Wiki} contains pointers to some
 additional extensions.  @uref{https://wikemacs.org, WikEmacs} is an
-- 
2.30.0


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
  2021-02-19  9:39 bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ Stefan Kangas
@ 2021-02-19 12:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2021-02-19 13:03   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-02-19 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 46633

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 03:39:24 -0600
> 
> I suggest that we talk about mailing lists ahead of Usenet newsgroups in
> the FAQ, as mailing lists is likely to be the most common way of
> accessing Emacs discussions these days.

I don't mind, but is it indeed so?  I see at least some people here
use the news group.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
  2021-02-19 12:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2021-02-19 13:03   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-02-19 14:34     ` Robert Pluim
  2021-02-22 11:18     ` Stefan Kangas
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-02-19 13:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Stefan Kangas, 46633

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> I suggest that we talk about mailing lists ahead of Usenet newsgroups in
>> the FAQ, as mailing lists is likely to be the most common way of
>> accessing Emacs discussions these days.

Looks good to me.

> I don't mind, but is it indeed so?  I see at least some people here
> use the news group.

Some people do, but they seem to be in the minority.  At least among
those who post.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
  2021-02-19 13:03   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-02-19 14:34     ` Robert Pluim
  2021-02-19 14:52       ` Stefan Kangas
  2021-02-22 11:18     ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-02-19 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: Stefan Kangas, 46633

>>>>> On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:03:02 +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> said:

    Lars> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
    >>> I suggest that we talk about mailing lists ahead of Usenet newsgroups in
    >>> the FAQ, as mailing lists is likely to be the most common way of
    >>> accessing Emacs discussions these days.

    Lars> Looks good to me.

    >> I don't mind, but is it indeed so?  I see at least some people here
    >> use the news group.

    Lars> Some people do, but they seem to be in the minority.  At least among
    Lars> those who post.

Some of use use gmane to read the list, and reply in email.

Robert





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
  2021-02-19 14:34     ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-02-19 14:52       ` Stefan Kangas
  2021-02-19 15:01         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2021-02-19 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim, Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 46633

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>     >> I don't mind, but is it indeed so?  I see at least some people here
>     >> use the news group.
>
>     Lars> Some people do, but they seem to be in the minority.  At least among
>     Lars> those who post.

(That's my impression too.)

> Some of use use gmane to read the list, and reply in email.

IIRC, Gmane is just a (cool) hack to mirror mailing lists to a news
server, so everyone can pretend they are reading news and get all the
good stuff that comes with that.  So Usenet newsgroup names don't apply
to gmane, right?

IOW, we could perhaps discuss Gmane in addition to Mailing lists or
Usenet, but it would be discussed as its own, separate thing?

(It's been a while since I used Gmane, sorry if I'm confused or
confusing...)





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
  2021-02-19 14:52       ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2021-02-19 15:01         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-02-19 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Robert Pluim, 46633

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> IIRC, Gmane is just a (cool) hack to mirror mailing lists to a news
> server, so everyone can pretend they are reading news and get all the
> good stuff that comes with that.  So Usenet newsgroup names don't apply
> to gmane, right?

Yes, there are no Usenet newsgroups on Gmane.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ
  2021-02-19 13:03   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-02-19 14:34     ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-02-22 11:18     ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2021-02-22 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen, Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 46633

tags 46633 fixed
close 46633 28.1
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> I suggest that we talk about mailing lists ahead of Usenet newsgroups in
>>> the FAQ, as mailing lists is likely to be the most common way of
>>> accessing Emacs discussions these days.
>
> Looks good to me.
>
>> I don't mind, but is it indeed so?  I see at least some people here
>> use the news group.
>
> Some people do, but they seem to be in the minority.  At least among
> those who post.

Thanks for reviewing, now pushed to master as commit 331e49df45.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-02-22 11:18 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-02-19  9:39 bug#46633: [PATCH] Prefer mailing lists to newsgroups in FAQ Stefan Kangas
2021-02-19 12:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-19 13:03   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-19 14:34     ` Robert Pluim
2021-02-19 14:52       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-19 15:01         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-22 11:18     ` Stefan Kangas

unofficial mirror of bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org 

This inbox may be cloned and mirrored by anyone:

	git clone --mirror https://yhetil.org/emacs-bugs/0 emacs-bugs/git/0.git

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V2 emacs-bugs emacs-bugs/ https://yhetil.org/emacs-bugs \
		bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
	public-inbox-index emacs-bugs

Example config snippet for mirrors.
Newsgroups are available over NNTP:
	nntp://news.yhetil.org/yhetil.emacs.bugs
	nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.bugs


AGPL code for this site: git clone http://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/public-inbox.git