bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Philip K.]

The german "Sharp S" (ß), seems to be capitalized inconsistenly,
depending on the system:

- The german postfix input method, typing "SZ" inserts "ẞ"
- If a buffer already contains a "ß", running upcase-dwim generates
  "SS". Lowercasing this results in "ss" unsurprisingly, while "ẞ"
  generates "ß".

Both behaviours are fine in their own right, but don't seem to make a
lot of sense together.



In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 5, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.5, cairo version 1.16.0)
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-- 
	Philip K.

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Philip K." <philip@warpmail.net>
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 20:44:55 +0200
> 
> The german "Sharp S" (ß), seems to be capitalized inconsistenly,
> depending on the system:
> 
> - The german postfix input method, typing "SZ" inserts "ẞ"
> - If a buffer already contains a "ß", running upcase-dwim generates
>   "SS". Lowercasing this results in "ss" unsurprisingly, while "ẞ"
>   generates "ß".
> 
> Both behaviours are fine in their own right, but don't seem to make a
> lot of sense together.

Do you have a proposal for how to improve this?  The problem, AFAIU,
is that there are different preference, each one of which is
legitimate, so the only way forward, it seems, is to introduce some
user options to select the desired behavior.

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Philip K.]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: "Philip K." <philip@warpmail.net>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 20:44:55 +0200
>> 
>> The german "Sharp S" (ß), seems to be capitalized inconsistenly,
>> depending on the system:
>> 
>> - The german postfix input method, typing "SZ" inserts "ẞ"
>> - If a buffer already contains a "ß", running upcase-dwim generates
>>   "SS". Lowercasing this results in "ss" unsurprisingly, while "ẞ"
>>   generates "ß".
>> 
>> Both behaviours are fine in their own right, but don't seem to make a
>> lot of sense together.
>
> Do you have a proposal for how to improve this?  The problem, AFAIU,
> is that there are different preference, each one of which is
> legitimate, so the only way forward, it seems, is to introduce some
> user options to select the desired behavior.

First off, I'm not a german native speaker, so there might be things I
don't know of. Otherwise, I think a user option would be a good idea. If
it turns out to not be practical, for whatever reason, I would instead
say that (upcase "ß") should evaluate to "ẞ", as it appears to the "more
correct" of the two options ("ss" or "SS" is usually written when the
"ß" cannot be used), at least according to some[0]:

> In 2016, the Council for German Orthography proposed the introduction
> of optional use of ẞ in its ruleset (i.e. variants STRASSE vs. STRAẞE
> would be accepted as equally valid).[19] The rule was officially
> adopted in 2017.[20]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F#Capital_form

-- 
	Philip K.

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Philip K." <philip@warpmail.net>
> Cc: 42064@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:08:55 +0200
> 
> > In 2016, the Council for German Orthography proposed the introduction
> > of optional use of ẞ in its ruleset (i.e. variants STRASSE vs. STRAẞE
> > would be accepted as equally valid).[19] The rule was officially
> > adopted in 2017.[20]
> 
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F#Capital_form

I know, but German input methods are not only for Germany, and AFAIR
other German-speaking countries didn't follow suit.

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: "Philip K." <philip@warpmail.net>
>> Cc: 42064@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:08:55 +0200
>>
>> > In 2016, the Council for German Orthography proposed the introduction
>> > of optional use of ẞ in its ruleset (i.e. variants STRASSE vs. STRAẞE
>> > would be accepted as equally valid).[19] The rule was officially
>> > adopted in 2017.[20]
>>
>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F#Capital_form
>
> I know, but German input methods are not only for Germany, and AFAIR
> other German-speaking countries didn't follow suit.

So it sounds like this is something we can't do much about, at the very
least not without help from a German language expert (presumably one
familiar with German as written in Germany, Switzerland and Austria).

Does that mean that this is a wontfix?

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > So it sounds like this is something we can't do much about, at the very
  > least not without help from a German language expert (presumably one
  > familiar with German as written in Germany, Switzerland and Austria).

I know free software supporters in Switzerland and Austria.
Would you like me to put you in touch?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Werner LEMBERG]

>>> > In 2016, the Council for German Orthography proposed the
>>> > introduction of optional use of ẞ in its ruleset (i.e. variants
>>> > STRASSE vs. STRAẞE would be accepted as equally valid).[19] The
>>> > rule was officially adopted in 2017.[20]
>>>
>>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F#Capital_form
>>
>> I know, but German input methods are not only for Germany, and
>> AFAIR other German-speaking countries didn't follow suit.
> 
> So it sounds like this is something we can't do much about, at the
> very least not without help from a German language expert
> (presumably one familiar with German as written in Germany,
> Switzerland and Austria).

AFAICS, the behaviour of the German postfix input method is fully
correct.  The default lowercase/uppercase pairing is 'ß/SS'. 'ẞ'
should not be a target of 'uppercase-fication'; its use is very
special.[*]

> Does that mean that this is a wontfix?

I suggest so.


    Werner


[*] Mainly a solution to indicate 'ß' in names that have to be written
    in uppercase letters.  Consider the names 'Strauss' and 'Strauß',
    which both occur in German and have to be distinguished in
    passports, where family names are to be written in uppercase:
    'STRAUSS' and 'STRAUẞ'.  However, in every other context, they
    should be both uppercased as 'STRAUSS'.

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > So it sounds like this is something we can't do much about, at the very
>   > least not without help from a German language expert (presumably one
>   > familiar with German as written in Germany, Switzerland and Austria).
>
> I know free software supporters in Switzerland and Austria.
> Would you like me to put you in touch?

Thanks for offering to find help.

Werner Lemberg commented and explained that the current behavior is
correct.  So I've now closed this bug.

bug#42064: 28.0.50; German "Sharp S" is capitalized inconsistenly

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 42064 + wontfix notabug
close 42064
thanks

Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> writes:

> AFAICS, the behaviour of the German postfix input method is fully
> correct.  The default lowercase/uppercase pairing is 'ß/SS'. 'ẞ'
> should not be a target of 'uppercase-fication'; its use is very
> special.[*]
>
>> Does that mean that this is a wontfix?
>
> I suggest so.

Thanks Werner, your explanation was both interesting and helpful.

Based on that, I'm closing this bug report now.

> [*] Mainly a solution to indicate 'ß' in names that have to be written
>     in uppercase letters.  Consider the names 'Strauss' and 'Strauß',
>     which both occur in German and have to be distinguished in
>     passports, where family names are to be written in uppercase:
>     'STRAUSS' and 'STRAUẞ'.  However, in every other context, they
>     should be both uppercased as 'STRAUSS'.