* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories @ 2022-12-13 13:19 Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-13 13:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-12-15 0:23 ` Michael Heerdegen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-13 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 60032 Hi, I find the current customization of Info search path slightly awkward. Emacs Info info page suggests to set INFOPATH environment variable. Yet, it is not something I feel comfortable doing (it is outside the nice warm Elisp VM). There is also `Info-default-directory-list', but it only works for special non-default value of INFOPATH. Currently, the only way I found to force adding directories as Info sources is the following: (require 'info) (info-initialize) (add-to-list 'Info-directory-list "~/Git/org-mode/doc/") which is awkward. Would it be possible to introduce something like `Info-overriding-directory-list' to be added in front of Info path in Emacs? This will complement `Info-additional-directory-list'. In GNU Emacs 30.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.35, cairo version 1.17.6) of 2022-12-07 built on localhost Repository revision: f0e118d3f676afe39df29663399d4bbe8f53f208 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101004 System Description: Gentoo Linux -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories 2022-12-13 13:19 bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-13 13:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-12-13 13:43 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-15 0:23 ` Michael Heerdegen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-12-13 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: 60032 > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:19:37 +0000 > > I find the current customization of Info search path slightly awkward. > > Emacs Info info page suggests to set INFOPATH environment variable. > Yet, it is not something I feel comfortable doing (it is outside the > nice warm Elisp VM). > > There is also `Info-default-directory-list', but it only works for > special non-default value of INFOPATH. > > Currently, the only way I found to force adding directories as Info > sources is the following: > > (require 'info) > (info-initialize) > (add-to-list 'Info-directory-list "~/Git/org-mode/doc/") > > which is awkward. > > Would it be possible to introduce something like > `Info-overriding-directory-list' to be added in front of Info path in > Emacs? This will complement `Info-additional-directory-list'. Please describe your use case, because I don't think I see why another variable would be needed. I guess you have INFOPATH defined (by someone who is not you?), but you don't like its value or something? It's not clear which problems you are trying to solve. In general, I can say 2 things, which I'm sure you already know: . environment variables can be set inside Emacs . you can hack Info-directory-list in any number of ways, and do whatever you want with it, in Lisp While the above two methods are not exactly what I'd suggest to an Emacs an Info newbie, I definitely can see you using them. So again, I'm unsure what kind of awkwardness is bothering you. Please elaborate. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories 2022-12-13 13:31 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-12-13 13:43 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-13 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-13 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 60032 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > Please describe your use case, because I don't think I see why another > variable would be needed. I guess you have INFOPATH defined (by > someone who is not you?), but you don't like its value or something? > It's not clear which problems you are trying to solve. We had a user confused about how to force Emacs info command use Org manual from git repo: https://list.orgmode.org/87359jcuoi.fsf@localhost/T/#mde65bfe981036a6ff2e1faa750670d9af648bad8 The user attempted to customize `Info-default-directory-list' and got surprised that it was ignored. Upon my further investigation, `Info-default-directory-list' is indeed ignored when INFOPATH is set by OS. I also had a similar confusion and gave up customizing Info directories at some point. Not because it is not documented, but because the setting is so unusual that I do not think about finding it. > In general, I can say 2 things, which I'm sure you already know: > > . environment variables can be set inside Emacs > . you can hack Info-directory-list in any number of ways, and do > whatever you want with it, in Lisp > > While the above two methods are not exactly what I'd suggest to an > Emacs an Info newbie, I definitely can see you using them. So again, > I'm unsure what kind of awkwardness is bothering you. Please > elaborate. I do agree that it is possible to set Info directories to desired value. However, `Info-default-directory-list' being ignored is rather surprising, especially given that setting the other defcustom (`Info-additional-directory-list') does not allow overriding system settings. Changing `Info-directory-list' is difficult because one needs to run (info-initialize), which can only be found by reading the source code. Changing environment variables is something I never ever needed to customize Emacs' behaviour. Once I see it, my thinking goes: "Surely, there should be some custom variable.", but no such variable exists. Conclusion: Current customization state is not a game breaker, but something I find confusing. That's why WISH. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories 2022-12-13 13:43 ` Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-13 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-12-14 10:27 ` Ihor Radchenko 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-12-13 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: 60032 > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> > Cc: 60032@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:43:50 +0000 > > The user attempted to customize `Info-default-directory-list' and got > surprised that it was ignored. > > Upon my further investigation, `Info-default-directory-list' is indeed > ignored when INFOPATH is set by OS. Yes. But why didn't that user modify INFOPATH? > However, `Info-default-directory-list' being ignored is rather > surprising, especially given that setting the other defcustom > (`Info-additional-directory-list') does not allow overriding system > settings. It is done for a good reason. Setting up the list correctly is difficult enough, what with the requirement that Emacs's own manuals should sometimes be before the system-wide installation, and sometimes after it (to support different use cases). When INFOPATH is defined, and used by the stand-alone Info reader, install-info, and other stuff, it becomes impossible to DTRT. So we punt, in effect saying: if you have INFOPATH, you should already know what you are doing. If you want the gory details (which I happily forgot), run "git log -L" (or vc-region-history) on the area where Info-default-directory-list is defined and used, and read the discussions related to the changes and bugs reported against that. > Changing environment variables is something I never ever needed to > customize Emacs' behaviour. Once I see it, my thinking goes: "Surely, > there should be some custom variable.", but no such variable exists. Does this include PATH? If not, why not? IME, the *PATH variables are quite special: they should generally be set from outside Emacs, and doing the same via customization options is usually not a good idea. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories 2022-12-13 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-12-14 10:27 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-17 12:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-14 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 60032 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> However, `Info-default-directory-list' being ignored is rather >> surprising, especially given that setting the other defcustom >> (`Info-additional-directory-list') does not allow overriding system >> settings. > > It is done for a good reason. Setting up the list correctly is > difficult enough, what with the requirement that Emacs's own manuals > should sometimes be before the system-wide installation, and sometimes > after it (to support different use cases). When INFOPATH is defined, > and used by the stand-alone Info reader, install-info, and other > stuff, it becomes impossible to DTRT. So we punt, in effect saying: > if you have INFOPATH, you should already know what you are doing. INFOPATH may be set by OS, not by user. For example, it is the case for me. I have never changed the default value of INFOPATH, which is non-empty on Gentoo. > If you want the gory details (which I happily forgot), run "git log -L" > (or vc-region-history) on the area where Info-default-directory-list > is defined and used, and read the discussions related to the changes > and bugs reported against that. I fail to see why a new variable, symmetric to `Info-additional-directory-list' cannot be added. It will be prepended, as opposed to `Info-additional-directory-list', to the Info path. Also, searching through the commits I noticed the following entry in Emacs FAQ: 3.5 How do I install a piece of Texinfo documentation? • You can create your own Info directory. You can tell Emacs where that Info directory is by adding its pathname to the value of the variable ‘Info-default-directory-list’. For example, to use a private Info directory which is a subdirectory of your home directory named ‘Info’, you could put this in your init file (*note Setting up a customization file::): (add-to-list 'Info-default-directory-list "~/Info/") You will need a top-level Info file named ‘dir’ in this directory which has everything the system ‘dir’ file has in it, except it should list only entries for Info files in that directory. You might not need it if (fortuitously) all files in this directory were referenced by other ‘dir’ files. The node lists from all ‘dir’ files in ‘Info-default-directory-list’ are merged by the Info system. The above if not true when INFOPATH environment variable is set, AFAIU. >> Changing environment variables is something I never ever needed to >> customize Emacs' behaviour. Once I see it, my thinking goes: "Surely, >> there should be some custom variable.", but no such variable exists. > > Does this include PATH? If not, why not? > > IME, the *PATH variables are quite special: they should generally be > set from outside Emacs, and doing the same via customization options > is usually not a good idea. I agree. However, I expect in-Emacs info reader to be more configurable. It's not like info.el requires external system tools. I prefer Emacs to be portable as much as sanely possible. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories 2022-12-14 10:27 ` Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-17 12:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-12-17 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: 60032 > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> > Cc: 60032@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 10:27:19 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > > >> Changing environment variables is something I never ever needed to > >> customize Emacs' behaviour. Once I see it, my thinking goes: "Surely, > >> there should be some custom variable.", but no such variable exists. > > > > Does this include PATH? If not, why not? > > > > IME, the *PATH variables are quite special: they should generally be > > set from outside Emacs, and doing the same via customization options > > is usually not a good idea. > > I agree. However, I expect in-Emacs info reader to be more configurable. > It's not like info.el requires external system tools. I prefer Emacs to > be portable as much as sanely possible. Feel free to submit a patch for the master branch. We will then have enough time to see if it causes trouble for someone. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories 2022-12-13 13:19 bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-13 13:31 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-12-15 0:23 ` Michael Heerdegen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Michael Heerdegen @ 2022-12-15 0:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: 60032, Thierry Volpiatto Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes: > Currently, the only way I found to force adding directories as Info > sources is the following: > > (require 'info) > (info-initialize) > (add-to-list 'Info-directory-list "~/Git/org-mode/doc/") > > which is awkward. Without judgment: Yes, it can be confusing, I remember the exact same question had been raised just a few weeks ago at the emacs-helm repo (thus the CC of Thierry as notification). I struggled with myself about whether I should create a bug report, but then saw that it's probably not easy to improve the end-user situation. Michael. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-12-17 12:55 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-12-13 13:19 bug#60032: 30.0.50; [WISH] Customizing Info directories Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-13 13:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-12-13 13:43 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-13 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-12-14 10:27 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-17 12:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-12-15 0:23 ` Michael Heerdegen
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