bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'

[Drew Adams]

 on last column
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Use command `buffer-menu' and then try to narrow or widen the rightmost
column (the file name).  `{' and `}' have no effect (and there isn't
even any error message or other feedback).

This is an important use case, especially with a frame or window whose
width is made to fit the displayed content.

This isn't a failing only of
`tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'.  It's a failing of the
current design of `tabulated-list-print-col'.

In GNU Emacs 27.0.91 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2020-04-20
Repository revision: c36c5a3dedbb2e0349be1b6c3b7567ea7b594f1c
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static''

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> 
> Use command `buffer-menu' and then try to narrow or widen the rightmost
> column (the file name).  `{' and `}' have no effect (and there isn't
> even any error message or other feedback).

The last column has infinite width, so I don't see how you could make
it wider or narrower.  (I agree that we should consider signaling a
user-error in this case.)

> This is an important use case, especially with a frame or window whose
> width is made to fit the displayed content.

This seems to imply that the use case in which this is somehow an
issue includes more than you've reported.  Can you add to your
description the minimal configuration that could explain why this
behavior seemed to be a problem?

> This isn't a failing only of
> `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'.  It's a failing of the
> current design of `tabulated-list-print-col'.

Any basis for such general claim?  Which design is at fault here?

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Drew Adams]

> > Use command `buffer-menu' and then try to narrow or widen the rightmost
> > column (the file name).  `{' and `}' have no effect (and there isn't
> > even any error message or other feedback).
> 
> The last column has infinite width, so I don't see how you could make
> it wider or narrower.  (I agree that we should consider signaling a
> user-error in this case.)

If the last column always has infinite width then
that's another way of expressing this design bug.

Users should be able to narrow its width - truncate
it, just as they can narrow the width of the other
columns.  That's the point.

> > This is an important use case, especially with a frame or window whose
> > width is made to fit the displayed content.
> 
> This seems to imply that the use case in which this is somehow an
> issue includes more than you've reported.  Can you add to your
> description the minimal configuration that could explain why this
> behavior seemed to be a problem?

There's no separate requirement.  Users should be
able to limit the width of the last column, just
as they can limit the width of any other column.
That's all.

I gave an example, and a recipe for it, using
buffer-menu.  If you want to show the file-name
column with only a limited width, then that
should be possible.  Especially now that we've
added the ability to interactively widen and
narrow column incrementally.

In the buffer list, if you have 10 buffers, and
only two of them are file buffers, and you don't
care to see the entire file names but instead
want to limit the width of that last column, you
should be able to do so.  Instead, it takes up
most of the table, even when you don't need to
see all of it.  You should be able to expand and
contract its width, just as you can for other
columns.

Saying that this is just the way it is, which is
what you seem to be saying, is another way of
reiterating the design limitation that this bug
report reports.

> > This isn't a failing only of
> > `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'.  It's a failing of the
> > current design of `tabulated-list-print-col'.
> 
> Any basis for such general claim?  Which design is at fault here?

Explained in the bug report: `tabulated-list-print-col'
treats the last column specially - it doesn't allow
limiting its width, i.e., truncating it.

;; Truncate labels if necessary (except last column).
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is apparently by design - it's currently a design
limitation of t-l-mode, apparently.  It's not a bug
in implementing that design, but an intentional part
of the design.  Or so it seems, not only from the
code but from that comment.

Regardless of my interpretation of where the bug is -
code or design, ` tabulated-list-print-col' or not,
the current limitation is clear.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Eli Zaretskii]

severity 41860 wishlist
thanks

> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 07:34:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 41860@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Users should be able to narrow its width - truncate
> it, just as they can narrow the width of the other
> columns.  That's the point.

In that case, you are actually asking for adding a feature, not for
fixing a bug.  I see no bug here, since the mode functions as it was
designed: without letting users force truncation of the last column.
So I've changed the severity accordingly.

> ;; Truncate labels if necessary (except last column).
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> This is apparently by design - it's currently a design
> limitation of t-l-mode, apparently.  It's not a bug
> in implementing that design, but an intentional part
> of the design.

Yes, that's my conclusion as well.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> > Use command `buffer-menu' and then try to narrow or widen the rightmost
>> > column (the file name).  `{' and `}' have no effect (and there isn't
>> > even any error message or other feedback).
[...]
>> > This is an important use case, especially with a frame or window whose
>> > width is made to fit the displayed content.
>>
>> This seems to imply that the use case in which this is somehow an
>> issue includes more than you've reported.  Can you add to your
>> description the minimal configuration that could explain why this
>> behavior seemed to be a problem?
>
> There's no separate requirement.  Users should be
> able to limit the width of the last column, just
> as they can limit the width of any other column.
> That's all.
>
> I gave an example, and a recipe for it, using
> buffer-menu.  If you want to show the file-name
> column with only a limited width, then that
> should be possible.  Especially now that we've
> added the ability to interactively widen and
> narrow column incrementally.
>
> In the buffer list, if you have 10 buffers, and
> only two of them are file buffers, and you don't
> care to see the entire file names but instead
> want to limit the width of that last column, you
> should be able to do so.  Instead, it takes up
> most of the table, even when you don't need to
> see all of it.  You should be able to expand and
> contract its width, just as you can for other
> columns.

May I ask why you feel that this would be a useful feature?  I have a
hard time understanding it since it's not something I can see myself
wanting to do.

Generally speaking, if a buffer extends beyond the window to the right,
I just never see that text, which in some sense is the same as if the
column had been narrowed.  And if there's extra room in the window, it
might as well be used for something instead of just being empty.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Drew Adams]

> > Users should be able to limit the width of the
> > last column, just as they can limit the width
> > of any other column.  That's all.
> 
> May I ask why you feel that this would be a useful feature?  I have a
> hard time understanding it since it's not something I can see myself
> wanting to do.

Turn it around.  Is there some reason we would _want_
to design the right column so it behaves differently
from other columns?  Is that a feature that you find
useful?  If there were a special cost to doing that,
would you go to the trouble to add that to the design?

Which "feature" is more useful?  The one you can't
see yourself wanting or the one I proposed: nothing
special about the right column?

Other things being equal (and they may not be - please
explain), why wouldn't we want the columns treated the
same?

> Generally speaking, if a buffer extends beyond the window to the right,
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I just never see that text, which in some sense is the same as if the
> column had been narrowed.  And if there's extra room in the window, it
> might as well be used for something instead of just being empty.

Oh, your window is narrow enough that it effectively
narrows the right column.  Fair enough.  Is that your
solution: resize the window (or perhaps the frame, if
one-window) instead of just the right column?  Sure,
that's one workaround.

Or maybe you'll push the frame off the right side of
your screen, to, in effect, truncate the right column.
That's another.

But if you have a feature that automatically fits
windows or frames to buffer content...  (My case.)

Is this the end of the world?  No.  I consider it a
minor bug.  You have a right to consider it a feature
or not a bug at all.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Drew Adams]

> Which "feature" is more useful?  The one you can't
> see yourself wanting or the one I proposed: nothing
> special about the right column?

Oops.  Sorry; I meant:

  Which "feature" is more useful?  The one you can't
  see yourself wanting (the one I proposed: nothing
  special about the right column) or the feature of
  having the right column be fixed width?

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Turn it around.  Is there some reason we would _want_
> to design the right column so it behaves differently
> from other columns?  Is that a feature that you find
> useful?

Yes, in general use it is pointless to limit the length of the final
column.  It is better (more useful to me) to let it extend infinitely.

> But if you have a feature that automatically fits
> windows or frames to buffer content...  (My case.)

Thanks, in such a situation I can see why having it extend infinitely
can be annoying.  That use-case is quite different from mine.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, 41860@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > May I ask why you feel that this would be a useful feature?  I have a
> > hard time understanding it since it's not something I can see myself
> > wanting to do.
> 
> Turn it around.  Is there some reason we would _want_
> to design the right column so it behaves differently
> from other columns?

No, please DON'T turn it around: we should not introduce features
whose main justification is "why not?"

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Drew Adams]

> > Turn it around.  Is there some reason we would _want_
> > to design the right column so it behaves differently
> > from other columns?  Is that a feature that you find
> > useful?
> 
> Yes, in general use it is pointless to limit the length of the final
> column.  It is better (more useful to me) to let it extend infinitely.
> 
> > But if you have a feature that automatically fits
> > windows or frames to buffer content...  (My case.)
> 
> Thanks, in such a situation I can see why having it extend infinitely
> can be annoying.  That use-case is quite different from mine.

Giving users a way to adjust the column size
satisfies us both.  You may never use it,
but it shouldn't bother you if it exists.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Drew Adams]

> > > May I ask why you feel that this would be a useful feature?  I have a
> > > hard time understanding it since it's not something I can see myself
> > > wanting to do.
> >
> > Turn it around.  Is there some reason we would _want_
> > to design the right column so it behaves differently
> > from other columns?
> 
> No, please DON'T turn it around: we should not introduce features
> whose main justification is "why not?"

No one said "why not".  This bug is already part
of Emacs.  The question about it, if question
there need be, is "Why?".

It's a bug that the rightmost column doesn't act
like the other columns.  A minor bug, but a bug.

IMHO.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:18:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 41860@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > > May I ask why you feel that this would be a useful feature?  I have a
> > > > hard time understanding it since it's not something I can see myself
> > > > wanting to do.
> > >
> > > Turn it around.  Is there some reason we would _want_
> > > to design the right column so it behaves differently
> > > from other columns?
> > 
> > No, please DON'T turn it around: we should not introduce features
> > whose main justification is "why not?"
> 
> No one said "why not".

You did.

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column' on last column

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > No, please DON'T turn it around: we should not introduce features
  > whose main justification is "why not?"

Very well said.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> In that case, you are actually asking for adding a feature, not for
> fixing a bug.  I see no bug here, since the mode functions as it was
> designed: without letting users force truncation of the last column.
> So I've changed the severity accordingly.

And reading this bug report, I don't see any use case for not having the
final column be infinitely wide, so I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41860: [External] : Re: bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'

[Drew Adams]

> And reading this bug report, I don't see any use case for not having the
> final column be infinitely wide, so I'm closing this bug report.

You don't see them.  Yet specific use cases were
presented:

1. >> a frame or window whose width is made to fit
   >> the displayed content.
and
   >> if you have a feature that automatically
   >> fits windows or frames to buffer content

   sk> Thanks, in such a situation I can see why
   sk> having it extend infinitely can be annoying.
   sk> That use-case is quite different from mine.

2.
   I gave an example, and a recipe for it, using
   buffer-menu.  If you want to show the file-name
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   column with only a limited width, then that
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   should be possible.  Especially now that we've
   added the ability to interactively widen and
   narrow column incrementally.

   In the buffer list, if you have 10 buffers, and
   only two of them are file buffers, and you don't
   care to see the entire file names but instead
   want to limit the width of that last column, you
   should be able to do so.  Instead, it takes up
   most of the table, even when you don't need to
   see all of it.  You should be able to expand and
   contract its width, just as you can for other
   columns.

bug#41860: [External] : Re: bug#41860: 27.0.91; Can't use `tabulated-list-(narrow|widen)-current-column'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> CC: "41860@debbugs.gnu.org" <41860@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 17:04:12 +0000
> 
> > And reading this bug report, I don't see any use case for not having the
> > final column be infinitely wide, so I'm closing this bug report.
> 
> You don't see them.  Yet specific use cases were
> presented:

Do you always have to have the last word?

Do you always have to assume your opinions were not read/ignored, not
just considered and disagreed with?