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* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
@ 2022-01-20 19:59 Antoine Beaupré
  2022-01-21 10:16 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2022-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Kangas
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Antoine Beaupré @ 2022-01-20 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 53396

Hi,

I am using notmuch to read my mail and, in the beautiful spirint of not
reinventing the wheel, it is itself using the icalendar/diary.el
libraries Emacs provides to render calendar files. This is great, but
there's a few problems in daily use:

 1. the default date format is American. I understand Americans first
    built Emacs, but its use has largely spread outside of the United
    States of America which has another, standard, time format called
    ISO 8601. workaround: (setq calendar-date-style 'iso)

 2. the rendered time is ambiguous. normally, it should be the local
    time, but that's not obvious when you receive an event notification,
    because the rest of the message might indicate other information

For example, here's how a recent event notification (received from
Nextcloud) looked like in notmuch:

```
user via Nextcloud <noreply@example.org> (Today 11:59) (attachment tor)
Subject: Next team meeting
To: Anarcat <anarcat@example.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:59:13 +0000
Reply-To: user <user@example.org>

[ multipart/mixed ]
[ multipart/alternative ]
[ text/plain ]
Invitation

                Next team meeting
                Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM (America/Montevideo)

Accept: https://nc.example.net/apps/dav/invitation/accept/[redacted]
Decline: https://nc.example.net/apps/dav/invitation/decline/[redacted]

More options at https://nc.example.net/apps/dav/invitation/moreOptions/[redacted]

-- 
Nextcloud - a safe home for all your data
This is an automatically sent email, please do not reply.
[ text/html (hidden) ]
[ event.ics: text/calendar ]
2022/1/25 13:00-14:00 Next team meeting
 Organizer: mailto:user@example.org
```

Now there's a few interesting things to notice here:

 1. the invitation itself mentions the timezone (America/Montevideo) and
    is therefore unambiguous

 2. Emacs is rendering the time correctly: the local timezone is
    America/Eastern and that equivalent time is indeed 13:00

 3. but that's pretty confusing: the timezone above says
    "America/Montevideo" so you'd be tempted to think the time below
    would *also* be in that timezone

 4. it also doesn't help that the invitation uses AM/PM time format
    (e.g. 3PM, easily confused with 13:00) instead of 24h (e.g. 15:00,
    which would be more obviously different from 13:00), of course
    something that's outside Emacs's control

 5. the "ISO" date format (2022/1/25) shown above, is actually
    incorrect: it should be 2022-01-25. that's a separate issue

My main concern here is number 4. The message is ambiguous, and Emacs is
not helping. It would be helpful if, after doing all that hard work of
parsing the ICS file, Emacs would give me as much information as it
could and actually tell me the timezone we're talking about here.

I have a patch here that will do exactly that. It changes the time
format to include a timezone (which is the local timezone, normally) and
adds extra spacing between the two times to make it more readable.

Before:

2022/1/25 13:00-14:00 Next team meeting
 Organizer: mailto:user@example.org

After:

2022/1/25 13:00-0500 - 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
 Organizer: mailto:user@example.org

The patch:

--- /usr/share/emacs/27.1/lisp/calendar/icalendar.el.gz	2022-01-20 14:54:49.872034436 -0500
+++ .emacs.d/elisp/icalendar.el.gz	2022-01-20 14:54:49.872034436 -0500
@@ -787,7 +787,7 @@
 (defun icalendar--datetime-to-colontime (datetime)
   "Extract the time part of a decoded DATETIME into 24-hour format.
 Note that this silently ignores seconds."
-  (format "%02d:%02d" (nth 2 datetime) (nth 1 datetime)))
+  (format "%02d:%02d%+05d" (nth 2 datetime) (nth 1 datetime) (* (/ (nth 8 datetime) 3600) 100)))
 
 (defun icalendar--get-month-number (monthname)
   "Return the month number for the given MONTHNAME."
@@ -2475,7 +2475,7 @@
 END-T is the event's end time in diary format."
   (icalendar--dmsg "not all day event")
   (cond (end-t
-         (format "%s %s-%s"
+         (format "%s %s - %s"
                  (icalendar--datetime-to-diary-date
                   dtstart-dec "/")
                  start-t end-t))

I would also strongly encourage folks to consider switching to "ISO" by
default, or at least to fix the ISO format to be YYYY-MM-DD instead of
YYYY/MM/DD, because that format is just silly.

Thank you for everything,

a.

In GNU Emacs 27.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.24, cairo version 1.16.0)
 of 2021-03-27, modified by Debian built on x86-conova-01
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12011000
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)

Recent messages:
Converting iCalendar...done
Saving file /home/anarcat/.emacs.d/elisp/icalendar.el.gz...
compressing icalendar.el.gz...done
Wrote /home/anarcat/.emacs.d/elisp/icalendar.el.gz

Configured using:
 'configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr
 --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/lib
 --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info
 --mandir=/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd --with-pop=yes
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 -Wformat -Werror=format-security -Wall' 'CPPFLAGS=-Wdate-time
 -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro'

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
INOTIFY ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF
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Features:
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files-x tramp-compat shell pcomplete parse-time iso8601 time-date
ls-lisp format-spec writegood-mode cua-base which-key
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dimmer face-remap srcery-theme rainbow-mode wc markdown-toc puppet-mode
align hl-todo anarcat-tags anzu lsp-ui lsp-ui-flycheck lsp-ui-doc
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project tree-widget wid-edit spinner pcase network-stream puny nsm rmc
markdown-mode color thingatpt noutline outline lv inline imenu ht
filenotify f s ewoc em-glob esh-util dash-functional dash jka-compr
paren icomplete grep compile comint ansi-color ring delsel cus-start
cus-load atomic-chrome advice websocket url-cookie url-domsuf url-util
bindat let-alist cl-extra help-mode use-package use-package-ensure
use-package-delight use-package-diminish use-package-bind-key bind-key
easy-mmode use-package-core devhelp preview-latex auto-loads tex-site
dpkg-dev-el info debian-el go-mode-autoloads rx package easymenu
browse-url url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core
cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json subr-x map url-vars seq
seq-25 byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib
tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type
mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image
regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode
lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch
timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu
font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european
ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop
case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray
cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files
text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule
custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind
inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting
cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 998545 132364)
 (symbols 48 49649 3)
 (strings 32 202195 31142)
 (string-bytes 1 6493247)
 (vectors 16 107237)
 (vector-slots 8 2158560 108356)
 (floats 8 784 668)
 (intervals 56 27935 9247)
 (buffers 1000 142))





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-01-20 19:59 bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone Antoine Beaupré
@ 2022-01-21 10:16 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2022-01-21 14:33   ` Antoine Beaupré
  2022-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2022-01-21 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Antoine Beaupré; +Cc: 53396

> 2022/1/25 13:00-14:00 Next team meeting
>  Organizer: mailto:user@example.org
> 
> After:
> 
> 2022/1/25 13:00-0500 - 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
>  Organizer: mailto:user@example.org

That looks very confusing, I think -- I first read that as a
mis-formatted time range from 13:00 to 05:00.  

If we want to include the time zone in the display, it shouldn't be
appended to both the start and end times (it's unlikely that they're in
different time zones), and it should be formatted in a different, less
ambiguous way, but I'm not sure how.

And if it's in the local time zone, it probably shouldn't be included at
all.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-01-21 10:16 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2022-01-21 14:33   ` Antoine Beaupré
  2022-01-22 11:29     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Antoine Beaupré @ 2022-01-21 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 53396

On 2022-01-21 11:16:18, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> 2022/1/25 13:00-14:00 Next team meeting
>>  Organizer: mailto:user@example.org
>> 
>> After:
>> 
>> 2022/1/25 13:00-0500 - 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
>>  Organizer: mailto:user@example.org
>
> That looks very confusing, I think -- I first read that as a
> mis-formatted time range from 13:00 to 05:00.  

I'm used to seeing times with a trailing offset, so I don't find this
that confusing anymore. But I know where you're coming from.

> If we want to include the time zone in the display, it shouldn't be
> appended to both the start and end times (it's unlikely that they're in
> different time zones),

True, but which one do you pick? This is not only possible in theory:
it's absolutely possible someone messes that up and generates a ics file
that has different timezones for start and end. I've seen this happen in
Nextcloud, which makes you pick a timezone for *both* times,
manually. People frequently mess it up.

So I would suggest keeping both.

> and it should be formatted in a different, less
> ambiguous way, but I'm not sure how.

Maybe using a different separator? Say:

 2022/1/25 13:00-0500 to 14:00-0500 Next team meeting

or:

 2022/1/25 13:00-0500 @ 14:00-0500 Next team meeting

?

> And if it's in the local time zone, it probably shouldn't be included at
> all.

Well that's exactly the problem here. Local time might be assumed
sometimes, but in certain remote work environment, it's a serious
mistake, because it's really ambiguous.

I had to repeatedly do the conversions (and look at the .ics source!) to
make sure it's local time. And I keep forgetting, somehow. Reading the
source code *kind* of helped, but made me frankly a little more confused
about the entire thing.

I understand this might be controversial, for people that maintain their
own agenda or work only with local times and don't have to deal with
timezones. But for people working fully remote, this makes the rendering
pretty much unusable, as I can't trust it.

How about making this configurable, maybe?

-- 
If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable.
                        - Murray Bookchin





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-01-21 14:33   ` Antoine Beaupré
@ 2022-01-22 11:29     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2022-01-23 21:04       ` Antoine Beaupré
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2022-01-22 11:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Antoine Beaupré; +Cc: 53396

Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:

> True, but which one do you pick? This is not only possible in theory:
> it's absolutely possible someone messes that up and generates a ics file
> that has different timezones for start and end. I've seen this happen in
> Nextcloud, which makes you pick a timezone for *both* times,
> manually. People frequently mess it up.

It's really unusual, though, and making the common case harder to read
to cover an odd edge case isn't ideal.  If the time zones are indeed
different, then they should be displayed, but if not, not.

>> and it should be formatted in a different, less
>> ambiguous way, but I'm not sure how.
>
> Maybe using a different separator? Say:
>
>  2022/1/25 13:00-0500 to 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
>
> or:
>
>  2022/1/25 13:00-0500 @ 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
>
> ?

It's not really an improvement.  Perhaps the time zone could be in a
parentheses somewhere, and explicitly say that it's a time zone.

Or a tooltip, and then we could list both the numeric and the symbolic
name for the timezone.

>> And if it's in the local time zone, it probably shouldn't be included at
>> all.
>
> Well that's exactly the problem here. Local time might be assumed
> sometimes, but in certain remote work environment, it's a serious
> mistake, because it's really ambiguous.

That's true, and having it be explicit helps making sure.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-01-22 11:29     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2022-01-23 21:04       ` Antoine Beaupré
  2022-01-24  9:41         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Antoine Beaupré @ 2022-01-23 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 53396

On 2022-01-22 12:29:47, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:
>
>> True, but which one do you pick? This is not only possible in theory:
>> it's absolutely possible someone messes that up and generates a ics file
>> that has different timezones for start and end. I've seen this happen in
>> Nextcloud, which makes you pick a timezone for *both* times,
>> manually. People frequently mess it up.
>
> It's really unusual, though, and making the common case harder to read
> to cover an odd edge case isn't ideal.  If the time zones are indeed
> different, then they should be displayed, but if not, not.

But then you end up with the same usability problem, in that case. I
want to address that degenerate case.

>>> and it should be formatted in a different, less
>>> ambiguous way, but I'm not sure how.
>>
>> Maybe using a different separator? Say:
>>
>>  2022/1/25 13:00-0500 to 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
>>
>> or:
>>
>>  2022/1/25 13:00-0500 @ 14:00-0500 Next team meeting
>>
>> ?
>
> It's not really an improvement.  Perhaps the time zone could be in a
> parentheses somewhere, and explicitly say that it's a time zone.

A time followed by a negative/positive number is the standard way (ISO)
to show the timezone. Not sure parenthesis would be much clearer, it
would carry potentially even more ambiguity.

> Or a tooltip, and then we could list both the numeric and the symbolic
> name for the timezone.

That is far beyond what i can provide in terms of Emacs programming. :p

>>> And if it's in the local time zone, it probably shouldn't be included at
>>> all.
>>
>> Well that's exactly the problem here. Local time might be assumed
>> sometimes, but in certain remote work environment, it's a serious
>> mistake, because it's really ambiguous.
>
> That's true, and having it be explicit helps making sure.

I'm happy to see my patch adapted somehow, if people have the energy for
that.

Couldn't that display be at least customize'able?

-- 
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
                       - Albert Einstein





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-01-23 21:04       ` Antoine Beaupré
@ 2022-01-24  9:41         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2022-01-24  9:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Antoine Beaupré; +Cc: 53396

Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:

> A time followed by a negative/positive number is the standard way (ISO)
> to show the timezone. Not sure parenthesis would be much clearer, it
> would carry potentially even more ambiguity.

It's the standard way to represent a time zone, but it's not the normal
way applications present time zones.

> Couldn't that display be at least customize'able?

People use the defaults, and the defaults should be reasonable, so this
should be fixed, but it's not clear how.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-01-20 19:59 bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone Antoine Beaupré
  2022-01-21 10:16 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2022-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-06-08  2:37   ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-11 17:08   ` Alexander Adolf
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-06-07 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Antoine Beaupré; +Cc: 53396

Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:

>  1. the default date format is American. I understand Americans first
>     built Emacs, but its use has largely spread outside of the United
>     States of America which has another, standard, time format called
>     ISO 8601. workaround: (setq calendar-date-style 'iso)

Why not change the `calendar-date-style' default to `iso'?

It seems overly US-centric to prefer `american' when most of the rest of
the world does not use that particular style.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2022-06-08  2:37   ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-08 13:20     ` Antoine Beaupré
  2022-06-13 12:11     ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-06-11 17:08   ` Alexander Adolf
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-06-08  2:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: anarcat, 53396

> Resent-From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org
> Cc: 53396@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 17:04:10 -0500
> 
> Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:
> 
> >  1. the default date format is American. I understand Americans first
> >     built Emacs, but its use has largely spread outside of the United
> >     States of America which has another, standard, time format called
> >     ISO 8601. workaround: (setq calendar-date-style 'iso)
> 
> Why not change the `calendar-date-style' default to `iso'?
> 
> It seems overly US-centric to prefer `american' when most of the rest of
> the world does not use that particular style.

IMNSHO, 'iso' is a bad default because no one uses it.

If we don't want to be "US-centric", we should determine the default
from the user's locale.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-06-08  2:37   ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-08 13:20     ` Antoine Beaupré
  2022-06-08 14:19       ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-13 12:11     ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Antoine Beaupré @ 2022-06-08 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii, Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 53396

On 2022-06-08 05:37:03, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Resent-From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
>> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org>
>> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org
>> Cc: 53396@debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
>> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 17:04:10 -0500
>> 
>> Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:
>> 
>> >  1. the default date format is American. I understand Americans first
>> >     built Emacs, but its use has largely spread outside of the United
>> >     States of America which has another, standard, time format called
>> >     ISO 8601. workaround: (setq calendar-date-style 'iso)
>> 
>> Why not change the `calendar-date-style' default to `iso'?
>> 
>> It seems overly US-centric to prefer `american' when most of the rest of
>> the world does not use that particular style.
>
> IMNSHO, 'iso' is a bad default because no one uses it.

That's a strange comment after one user telling you explicitly that they
use it.

How big is that "no one" group in your mind anyways? It's at least one,
I suspect it's more.

It's even more bizarre to state that the actual ISO 8601 standard is
used by "no one" considering it's, well, an ISO standard. According to
Wikipedia:

    On the Internet, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) uses the IETF
    standard based on ISO 8601 in defining a profile of the standard
    that restricts the supported date and time formats to reduce the
    chance of error and the complexity of software.

Also:

   The ISO 8601 week date, as of 2006, appeared in its basic form on
   major brand commercial packaging in the United States.

The article goes on documenting 42 different countries, including the
United States of America, which have formally adopted ISO 8601 as a
national standard (ANSI INCITS 30-1997 (R2008) and NIST FIPS PUB 4-2,
specifically, in the US).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Usage

So, really, "no one uses it"? Come on.

> If we don't want to be "US-centric", we should determine the default
> from the user's locale.

I'm fine with that too, but I would point out that you already have a
lot of people in the US that are pretty tired with the ridiculous locale
en_US has adopted. But maybe that debate is better left to the locale
settings and not here.

I would also argue that switching to the user's locale is harder to do
than just change the default to something that everyone will
unambiguously understand, even, yes, US people that are hell bent on not
adopting that standard.

The point I was trying to make is the default is unreasonable, and that
ISO would be a better default. But maybe that's too tough of a pill to
swallow, still, after 30 years of ISO 8601 and even more decades of
trying to internationalise software.

a.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-06-08 13:20     ` Antoine Beaupré
@ 2022-06-08 14:19       ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-08 15:33         ` Antoine Beaupré
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-06-08 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Antoine Beaupré; +Cc: stefan, 53396

> From: Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org>
> Cc: 53396@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:20:01 -0400
> 
> So, really, "no one uses it"? Come on.

Yes, "no one", compared to the number of people who use non-ISO
formats.

> The point I was trying to make is the default is unreasonable, and that
> ISO would be a better default. But maybe that's too tough of a pill to
> swallow, still, after 30 years of ISO 8601 and even more decades of
> trying to internationalise software.

That's an unfriendly way of arguing.  Disagreement should not lead to
disparaging comments like this one about your opponents.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-06-08 14:19       ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-08 15:33         ` Antoine Beaupré
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Antoine Beaupré @ 2022-06-08 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: stefan, 53396

On 2022-06-08 17:19:53, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org>
>> Cc: 53396@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:20:01 -0400
>> 
>> So, really, "no one uses it"? Come on.
>
> Yes, "no one", compared to the number of people who use non-ISO
> formats.

I find it rather offensive to be put in the "no one" category.

>> The point I was trying to make is the default is unreasonable, and that
>> ISO would be a better default. But maybe that's too tough of a pill to
>> swallow, still, after 30 years of ISO 8601 and even more decades of
>> trying to internationalise software.
>
> That's an unfriendly way of arguing.  Disagreement should not lead to
> disparaging comments like this one about your opponents.

I don't believe I have made a statement about you or my "opponents"
here. I am just observing that it seems hard to make this change.

I'm sorry if you feel personally attacked by this, I did not mean to
offend.

-- 
We build our computer (systems) the way we build our cities: over
time, without a plan, on top of ruins.
                        - Ellen Ullman





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-06-08  2:37   ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-06-11 17:08   ` Alexander Adolf
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Adolf @ 2022-06-11 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas, Antoine Beaupré; +Cc: 53396

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:
>
>>  1. the default date format is American. I understand Americans first
>>     built Emacs, but its use has largely spread outside of the United
>>     States of America which has another, standard, time format called
>>     ISO 8601. workaround: (setq calendar-date-style 'iso)
>
> Why not change the `calendar-date-style' default to `iso'?
> [...]

Changing long standing defaults is always hard.

In case it mattered, ISO 8601 would be a default that is
socio-culturally neutral, because it is not linked to any social,
cultural, or language context. That said, it would neither prefer, nor
discriminate anyone. Ok, except those whose preference is what the old
default was... ;-)


  --alexander





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone
  2022-06-08  2:37   ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-06-08 13:20     ` Antoine Beaupré
@ 2022-06-13 12:11     ` Stefan Kangas
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2022-06-13 12:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Antoine Beaupré, 53396

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> > Why not change the `calendar-date-style' default to `iso'?
> >
> > It seems overly US-centric to prefer `american' when most of the rest of
> > the world does not use that particular style.
>
> IMNSHO, 'iso' is a bad default because no one uses it.

Well, some countries do use it (including my own):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Adoption_as_national_standards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country

In any case, while I do think better localization would be great, that
is a larger task and orthogonal to adopting ISO 8601 in this case.  I
think that Emacs should follow international standards by default.

BTW, shouldn't the ISO 8601 default be "year-month-day"?  It is
documented to be "year/month/day".  See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-06-13 12:11 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-01-20 19:59 bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone Antoine Beaupré
2022-01-21 10:16 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-01-21 14:33   ` Antoine Beaupré
2022-01-22 11:29     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-01-23 21:04       ` Antoine Beaupré
2022-01-24  9:41         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2022-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-06-08  2:37   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-08 13:20     ` Antoine Beaupré
2022-06-08 14:19       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-06-08 15:33         ` Antoine Beaupré
2022-06-13 12:11     ` Stefan Kangas
2022-06-11 17:08   ` Alexander Adolf

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