* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
@ 2015-04-13 5:22 Alexis
2015-04-13 5:59 ` Alexis
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alexis @ 2015-04-13 5:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 20316
(getenv "LC_COLLATE") => "hr_HR.UTF-8"
(string-lessp "Ć" "D") => nil
(string-lessp "Đ" "S") => nil
(string-lessp "Š" "Z") => nil
In GNU Emacs 24.5.2 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.4.2)
of 2015-04-11 on adele
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11204000
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 7.8 (wheezy)
Important settings:
value of $LC_COLLATE: hr_HR.utf8
value of $LANG: en_AU.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
Major mode: Text
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diff-auto-refine-mode: t
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show-paren-mode: t
global-pretty-mode: t
engine-mode: t
global-page-break-lines-mode: t
change-cursor-mode: t
global-undo-tree-mode: t
undo-tree-mode: t
shell-dirtrack-mode: t
guide-key-mode: t
global-company-mode: t
company-mode: t
TeX-PDF-mode: t
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erc-list-mode: t
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erc-autojoin-mode: t
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visual-line-mode: t
transient-mark-mode: t
auto-fill-mode: 1
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move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)
Memory information:
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 5:22 bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE Alexis
@ 2015-04-13 5:59 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 6:18 ` Michael Albinus
2015-04-13 14:10 ` Paul Eggert
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alexis @ 2015-04-13 5:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 20316
Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> writes:
> (getenv "LC_COLLATE") => "hr_HR.UTF-8"
>
> (string-lessp "Ć" "D") => nil (string-lessp "Đ" "S") => nil
> (string-lessp "Š" "Z") => nil
i should add, this happens even with `set-locale-environment'
specified as 'hr_HR.UTF-8' and/or `set-language-environment'
specified as 'Croatian'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 5:22 bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE Alexis
2015-04-13 5:59 ` Alexis
@ 2015-04-13 6:18 ` Michael Albinus
2015-04-13 6:42 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 14:10 ` Paul Eggert
2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Michael Albinus @ 2015-04-13 6:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexis; +Cc: 20316
Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> writes:
> (getenv "LC_COLLATE") => "hr_HR.UTF-8"
>
> (string-lessp "Ć" "D") => nil
> (string-lessp "Đ" "S") => nil
> (string-lessp "Š" "Z") => nil
`string-lessp' is not design to respect collation order. The docstring
speaks about lexicographoc order.
In Emacs 25.0.50, there is `string-collate-lessp', with respects your
locale settings.
Best regards, Michael.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 6:18 ` Michael Albinus
@ 2015-04-13 6:42 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 6:53 ` Michael Albinus
2015-04-13 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alexis @ 2015-04-13 6:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 20316; +Cc: michael.albinus
Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:
> Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> (getenv "LC_COLLATE") => "hr_HR.UTF-8"
>>
>> (string-lessp "Ć" "D") => nil (string-lessp "Đ" "S") => nil
>> (string-lessp "Š" "Z") => nil
>
> `string-lessp' is not design to respect collation order. The
> docstring speaks about lexicographoc order.
i'm sorry, i don't follow this. Yes, the docstring talks about
lexicographic order. But i think it's reasonable for users to
expect Emacs' built-in sort functionality (e.g. `sort-lines') to
respect their current locale such that lexicographic order and
collation order are treated as basically synonymous. Unless
there's an important distinction between the two in this context
that i'm missing?
In this specific case, a user of a package i maintain was
surprised when `org-sort' didn't sort their Croatian-language Org
entries properly. Under the hood, `org-sort' uses
`string-lessp'. Is the bottom line that they'll have to wait until
at least 25.1 before Org could add conditional code to use
`string-collate-lessp', to at least DTRT for users of >25.0?
Alexis.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 6:42 ` Alexis
@ 2015-04-13 6:53 ` Michael Albinus
2015-04-13 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Michael Albinus @ 2015-04-13 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexis; +Cc: 20316
Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> writes:
> In this specific case, a user of a package i maintain was surprised
> when `org-sort' didn't sort their Croatian-language Org entries
> properly. Under the hood, `org-sort' uses `string-lessp'.
This shall be customizable.
> Is the
> bottom line that they'll have to wait until at least 25.1 before Org
> could add conditional code to use `string-collate-lessp', to at least
> DTRT for users of >25.0?
`string-collate-lessp' is a new function in Emacs 25. Yes, you have to wait.
> Alexis.
Best regards, Michael.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 5:22 bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE Alexis
2015-04-13 5:59 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 6:18 ` Michael Albinus
@ 2015-04-13 14:10 ` Paul Eggert
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Paul Eggert @ 2015-04-13 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 20316-done
Since the problem is already addressed in the trunk and this will appear in the
next major release, I'm closing the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 6:42 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 6:53 ` Michael Albinus
@ 2015-04-13 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 0:55 ` Alexis
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-04-13 14:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexis; +Cc: michael.albinus, 20316
> From: Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 16:42:30 +1000
> Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de
>
> (getenv "LC_COLLATE") => "hr_HR.UTF-8"
> (string-lessp "Ć" "D") => nil
> (string-lessp "Đ" "S") => nil
> (string-lessp "Š" "Z") => nil
>
> `string-lessp' is not design to respect collation order. The docstring speaks about lexicographoc order.
>
> i'm sorry, i don't follow this. Yes, the docstring talks about lexicographic order. But i think it's reasonable for users to expect Emacs' built-in sort functionality (e.g. `sort-lines') to respect their current locale such that lexicographic order and collation order are treated as basically synonymous. Unless there's an important distinction between the two in this context that i'm missing?
Emacs is a multi-lingual editor, and it isn't clear how to apply
locale-specific settings, including collation, to text that can
potentially include many scripts. E.g., a locale could specify a
codeset that doesn't cover characters outside of a particular script,
which will produce undefined results if you try using system sorting
routines with characters outside of that single script.
Also, using locale-specific sorting would produce different results
not only in different locales, but also on different platforms in the
same locale, because the implementation of locale collation order
differs from platform to platform and from one C library to another.
Please also note that locale-sensitive collation order could mean more
than just order of characters. E.g., it could specify that
punctuation characters or differences in accents should be ignored.
So by default, Emacs sorts disregarding locale-specific ordering,
basically using the Unicode codepoints of the characters to order
them.
> In this specific case, a user of a package i maintain was surprised when `org-sort' didn't sort their Croatian-language Org entries properly. Under the hood, `org-sort' uses `string-lessp'. Is the bottom line that they'll have to wait until at least 25.1 before Org could add conditional code to use `string-collate-lessp', to at least DTRT for users of >25.0?
You could use the external 'sort' utility in the meantime, if it
supports locale-dependent ordering. Once again: the results will be
not 100% deterministic, even for the same locale, so your users should
"caveat emptor".
May I ask what does that package of yours do that it needs
locale-dependent sorting?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-13 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2015-04-14 0:55 ` Alexis
2015-04-14 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alexis @ 2015-04-14 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 20316; +Cc: michael.albinus
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> Emacs is a multi-lingual editor, and it isn't clear how to apply
> locale-specific settings, including collation, to text that can
> potentially include many scripts. E.g., a locale could specify
> a codeset that doesn't cover characters outside of a particular
> script, which will produce undefined results if you try using
> system sorting routines with characters outside of that single
> script.
Okay, fair point.
> Also, using locale-specific sorting would produce different
> results not only in different locales, but also on different
> platforms in the same locale, because the implementation of
> locale collation order differs from platform to platform and
> from one C library to another.
Huh, okay.
> Please also note that locale-sensitive collation order could
> mean more than just order of characters. E.g., it could specify
> that punctuation characters or differences in accents should be
> ignored.
*nod*
> So by default, Emacs sorts disregarding locale-specific
> ordering, basically using the Unicode codepoints of the
> characters to order them.
This makes sense given what you've said above, but can this still
be referred to as 'lexicographic' ordering? To me, 'lexicographic
ordering' is ordering as per a dictionary for the relevant
language, not by codepoint for an arbitrary encoding. Is this
wrong?
> You could use the external 'sort' utility in the meantime, if it
> supports locale-dependent ordering. Once again: the results
> will be not 100% deterministic, even for the same locale, so
> your users should "caveat emptor".
*nod* Thanks, i'll pass that on. (And note it for the future.)
> May I ask what does that package of yours do that it needs
> locale-dependent sorting?
The package itself doesn't do it, but the results it produces
might subsequently require such sorting. The package is
`org-vcard':
https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard
which allows one to import vCards to contacts in Org-based formats
(and export contacts from Org-based formats to vCards).
One of the package's users had imported a set of contacts, then
expected to be able to sort those contacts according to Croatian
rules, using `org-sort' (from `org.el'). However, to quote the
user, this resulted in the contacts being sorted:
according to the English alphabet rules where the contact
entries which start with Croatian characters (Č,Ć,Đ,Š,Ž) are
at the end of the list, iow. after 'Z' entries, although it
should go like this:
A,B,C,Č,Ć,D,Dž,Đ,..S,Š,..Z,Ž
Alexis.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-14 0:55 ` Alexis
@ 2015-04-14 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 23:55 ` Alexis
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-04-14 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexis; +Cc: michael.albinus, 20316
> From: Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, michael.albinus@gmx.de
> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:55:53 +1000
>
> So by default, Emacs sorts disregarding locale-specific ordering, basically using the Unicode codepoints of the characters to order them.
>
> This makes sense given what you've said above, but can this still be referred to as 'lexicographic' ordering? To me, 'lexicographic ordering' is ordering as per a dictionary for the relevant language, not by codepoint for an arbitrary encoding. Is this wrong?
I think we use "lexicographic" for lack of a more accurate word. We
could use something like "code point (binary) order", but would that
be clear enough to be useful?
Note that we are not alone in this; at least this page:
http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/string/byte/strcoll
says that the C function 'strcmp' does a "lexicographical comparison".
So do a few other similar pages; google for "difference between strcmp
and strcoll".
> One of the package's users had imported a set of contacts, then expected to be able to sort those contacts according to Croatian rules, using `org-sort' (from `org.el'). However, to quote the user, this resulted in the contacts being sorted according to the English alphabet rules where the contact entries which start with Croatian characters (Č,Ć,Đ,Š,Ž) are at the end of the list, iow. after 'Z' entries, although it should go like this:
>
> A,B,C,Č,Ć,D,Dž,Đ,..S,Š,..Z,Ž
That's "collation order" in action, note that the diacritic order is
applied _after_ the alphabetic order of the base characters. That's
what string-collate-lessp does.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-14 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2015-04-14 23:55 ` Alexis
2015-04-15 1:23 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alexis @ 2015-04-14 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 20316; +Cc: michael.albinus
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> I think we use "lexicographic" for lack of a more accurate word.
> We could use something like "code point (binary) order", but
> would that be clear enough to be useful?
i would certainly find that more useful overall, as i think it's
less ambiguous (to me) than 'lexicographic order' in this
context. i assume it's "code point [according to the overall
encoding of the relevant buffer]"? And given your earlier point,
i'm guessing it would also be useful to say something along the
lines of "If the data being sorted contains multiple encodings,
all bets are off"? (Which is relevant in the `org-vcard' case of
people possibly trying to sort contacts whose names are based in a
variety of locales.)
> Note that we are not alone in this; at least this page:
>
> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/string/byte/strcoll
>
> says that the C function 'strcmp' does a "lexicographical
> comparison". So do a few other similar pages; google for
> "difference between strcmp and strcoll".
Well, that to me feels like continued holdover from the C+ASCII
(or at best Latin-1) 'byte == character' mindset ....
>> A,B,C,Č,Ć,D,Dž,Đ,..S,Š,..Z,Ž
>
> That's "collation order" in action, note that the diacritic
> order is applied _after_ the alphabetic order of the base
> characters. That's what string-collate-lessp does.
*nod* That's why my first thoughts about this issue went to
collation settings; given that (it seems to me) Emacs has a far
better handle on i18n and m17n issues than most software, i
assumed that sorting-by-collation-order would already be available
in 24.x. However, given what you've said, i've now got a better
understanding of why implementing this is not straightforward.
Thanks for taking the time to explain all this!
Alexis.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE
2015-04-14 23:55 ` Alexis
@ 2015-04-15 1:23 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2015-04-15 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexis; +Cc: michael.albinus, 20316
> ambiguous (to me) than 'lexicographic order' in this context. i assume it's
> "code point [according to the overall encoding of the relevant buffer]"?
No, it's "code point according to Unicode" since we use Unicode
internally and convert to/from the external encoding during input/output.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-04-15 1:23 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-04-13 5:22 bug#20316: 24.5; `string-lessp' doesn't respect value of LC_COLLATE Alexis
2015-04-13 5:59 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 6:18 ` Michael Albinus
2015-04-13 6:42 ` Alexis
2015-04-13 6:53 ` Michael Albinus
2015-04-13 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 0:55 ` Alexis
2015-04-14 14:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 23:55 ` Alexis
2015-04-15 1:23 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-13 14:10 ` Paul Eggert
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