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* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
@ 2016-10-16  7:27 Ivor Durham
  2016-10-16 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-16  7:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 24707


After upgrading from Fedora 23 to Fedora 24, when I open Emacs the
window is initially the size specified in my ~/.Xdefaults file (80x50)
as before the upgrade, but then it automatically shrinks to five lines
(3 buffer, status bar and message line below the status bar). This
occurs with "emacs -Q filename". I am accessing the Linux system
remotely from Windows 10 using Secure CRT and the VcXsrv X server
running on Windows. If I open the same file locally on the Linux
workstation, Emacs does not shrink the window after opening the file.
Only the Fedora upgrade changed to introduce this change in behavior,
not Secure CRT or VcXsrv.


In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.20.9)
of 2016-09-19 built on buildvm-07.phx2.fedoraproject.org
Windowing system distributor 'HC-Consult', version 11.0.11702000
System Description: Fedora release 24 (Twenty Four)

Configured using:
'configure --build=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu
--host=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu --program-prefix=
--disable-dependency-tracking --prefix=/usr --exec-prefix=/usr
--bindir=/usr/bin --sbindir=/usr/sbin --sysconfdir=/etc
--datadir=/usr/share --includedir=/usr/include --libdir=/usr/lib64
--libexecdir=/usr/libexec --localstatedir=/var
--sharedstatedir=/var/lib --mandir=/usr/share/man
--infodir=/usr/share/info --with-dbus --with-gif --with-jpeg --with-png
--with-rsvg --with-tiff --with-xft --with-xpm --with-x-toolkit=gtk3
--with-gpm=no --with-xwidgets build_alias=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu
host_alias=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu 'CFLAGS=-DMAIL_USE_LOCKF -O2 -g
-pipe -Wall -Werror=format-security -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
-fexceptions -fstack-protector-strong --param=ssp-buffer-size=4
-grecord-gcc-switches -specs=/usr/lib/rpm/redhat/redhat-hardened-cc1
-m64 -mtune=generic' LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro
PKG_CONFIG_PATH=:/usr/lib64/pkgconfig:/usr/share/pkgconfig'

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND DBUS GCONF GSETTINGS NOTIFY
ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XWIDGETS

Important settings:
value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Fundamental

Minor modes in effect:
tooltip-mode: t
global-eldoc-mode: t
electric-indent-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
tool-bar-mode: t
menu-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
blink-cursor-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
transient-mark-mode: t

Recent messages:
For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.
funcall-interactively: End of buffer

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message dired format-spec rfc822 mml
mml-sec password-cache epg epg-config gnus-util mm-decode mm-bodies
mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail
rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util help-fns help-mode easymenu
cl-loaddefs pcase cl-lib mail-prsvr mail-utils time-date mule-util
tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type
mwheel x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt
fringe tabulated-list newcomment elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register
page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock
font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cl-generic cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european
ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese charscript case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice
loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay
sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote dbusbind inotify dynamic-setting
system-font-setting font-render-setting xwidget-internal move-toolbar
gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 86525 6061)
(symbols 48 19794 0)
(miscs 40 48 146)
(strings 32 14338 4200)
(string-bytes 1 409546)
(vectors 16 11740)
(vector-slots 8 430740 5033)
(floats 8 164 100)
(intervals 56 249 0)
(buffers 976 19)
(heap 1024 21819 1054))






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-16  7:27 bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size Ivor Durham
@ 2016-10-16 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
       [not found]   ` <012901d227dd$26d5fee0$7481fca0$@durham@ivor.cc>
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-16 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707

> From: Ivor Durham <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 00:27:08 -0700
> 
> 
> After upgrading from Fedora 23 to Fedora 24, when I open Emacs the
> window is initially the size specified in my ~/.Xdefaults file (80x50)
> as before the upgrade, but then it automatically shrinks to five lines
> (3 buffer, status bar and message line below the status bar). This
> occurs with "emacs -Q filename". I am accessing the Linux system
> remotely from Windows 10 using Secure CRT and the VcXsrv X server
> running on Windows. If I open the same file locally on the Linux
> workstation, Emacs does not shrink the window after opening the file.
> Only the Fedora upgrade changed to introduce this change in behavior,
> not Secure CRT or VcXsrv.

If the Fedora upgrade causes this, why do you think it's a bug in
Emacs?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
       [not found]   ` <012901d227dd$26d5fee0$7481fca0$@durham@ivor.cc>
@ 2016-10-16 19:09     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-10-16 19:34       ` Ivor Durham
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-16 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707

[Please keep the bug address on the CC list.]

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 11:43:13 -0700
> 
> Emacs is the only application I've encountered exhibiting this behavior
> after the upgrade, so I inferred that it was a different version of Emacs.

What was your previous version of Emacs?

> Firefox, Thunderbird, gimp, etc. all open their window(s) normally on my
> remotely connected system. 

What happens if you invoke "emacs -q" (lowercase 'q')?  Do you see the
splash screen with the GNU image?

> I did, however, make a discovery later after reporting the problem: When
> connected remotely, I found that the bash shell DISPLAY environment variable
> is set to "localhost:10.0". If I set DISPLAY to my remote system's actual
> address ("192.168.0.103:0"), the window opens normally and doesn't shrink
> after opening.

Later you wrote (again, in a private email):

> I take back the discovery; It's back to shrinking the window this morning
> even with DISPLAY set to the actual address.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-16 19:09     ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-16 19:34       ` Ivor Durham
  2016-10-25 19:43       ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]       ` <0b8a01d22ef8$15455c80$3fd01580$@durham@ivor.cc>
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-16 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Eli Zaretskii'; +Cc: 24707


What was your previous version of Emacs?

-- From the DNF log cleanup messages it appears the package version was
emacs-1:24.5-10.fc23.x86_64. The installed package is now listed as
emacs-25.1-1.fc24.x86_64

> Firefox, Thunderbird, gimp, etc. all open their window(s) normally on 
> my remotely connected system.

What happens if you invoke "emacs -q" (lowercase 'q')?  Do you see the
splash screen with the GNU image?

-- I'm not able to capture video of my screen, but it appears I get a black
screen briefly before the normal Emacs window appears which then shrinks. I
am not seeing the logo explicitly, but the switch too fast to determine
whether or not an image actually appears. With no arguments other than "-q"
it ends up in the "Welcome to GNU Emacs, one component ..." window. I could
try capturing the screen via smartphone video if that would help then I
could look at it one frame at a time.

> I did, however, make a discovery later after reporting the problem: 
> When connected remotely, I found that the bash shell DISPLAY 
> environment variable is set to "localhost:10.0". If I set DISPLAY to 
> my remote system's actual address ("192.168.0.103:0"), the window 
> opens normally and doesn't shrink after opening.

Later you wrote (again, in a private email):

> I take back the discovery; It's back to shrinking the window this 
> morning even with DISPLAY set to the actual address.

-- Indeed I cannot explain why it appeared to work correctly last night with
the modified DISPLAY value but not now.






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-16 19:09     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-10-16 19:34       ` Ivor Durham
@ 2016-10-25 19:43       ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]       ` <0b8a01d22ef8$15455c80$3fd01580$@durham@ivor.cc>
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-25 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 24707

I've used the iSpring screen video capture tool to record the behavior when
I launch "emacs -Q" with the DISPLAY environment variable set as
"192.168.0.103:0.0". The video is accessible on YouTube at
https://youtu.be/M0Um2F2oWx4 or I can attach it as needed.

Stepping through the video one frame at a time in Windows Movie Maker
reveals the following sequence:

1. The window first opens on the remote laptop at the expected size with a
black background, but no Emacs logo.
2. A grey square appears in the upper-left corner of the window occupying
about 1/3 of the width & height of the window.
3. The window turns white and the Emacs menu bar appears.
4. The buffer status bar appears with one empty buffer line between the menu
bar and the status bar at the top of the window. (This is the first sign
something unusual is happening.)
5. Two more menu items appear at the end of the menu bar: Lisp-Interaction
and Help
6. The window changes size automatically.
7. The status bar moves down leaving room for 3 buffer lines above it and a
"For information about GNU Emacs ..." line below it.
8. The mode in the status bar says "Lisp-Interaction" instead of
"Fundamental".

Does this give any clue about where the problem I might look for the cause
of this problem?








^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
       [not found]       ` <0b8a01d22ef8$15455c80$3fd01580$@durham@ivor.cc>
@ 2016-10-25 23:06         ` Glenn Morris
  2016-10-26  8:22           ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]           ` <0c1a01d22f62$0bfce7f0$23f6b7d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2016-10-25 23:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707


Perhaps relevant: https://debbugs.gnu.org/23144 ?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-25 23:06         ` Glenn Morris
@ 2016-10-26  8:22           ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]           ` <0c1a01d22f62$0bfce7f0$23f6b7d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-26  8:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Glenn Morris'; +Cc: 24707

Yes, it looks like I have duplicated bug #23144.

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Morris [mailto:rgm@gnu.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 4:07 PM
To: Ivor Durham
Cc: 24707@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at
normal size


Perhaps relevant: https://debbugs.gnu.org/23144 ?






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
       [not found]           ` <0c1a01d22f62$0bfce7f0$23f6b7d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
@ 2016-10-26 12:02             ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-10-26 17:06               ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]               ` <0cbd01d22fab$429aa5b0$c7cff110$@durham@ivor.cc>
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-26 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 01:22:09 -0700
> Cc: 24707@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Yes, it looks like I have duplicated bug #23144.

But that bug was supposed to be solved in Emacs 25.1, right?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-26 12:02             ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-26 17:06               ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]               ` <0cbd01d22fab$429aa5b0$c7cff110$@durham@ivor.cc>
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-26 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Eli Zaretskii'; +Cc: 24707

Is it possible that the issue is that I'm seeing the problem on a remote
display not the local display? If I am logged in locally at the workstation,
the window opens normally. However, if I login over the LAN using SecureCRT
on a Windows 10 system running VcXsrv then the resize problem occurs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eli Zaretskii [mailto:eliz@gnu.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 5:03 AM
To: Ivor Durham
Cc: rgm@gnu.org; 24707@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at
normal size

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 01:22:09 -0700
> Cc: 24707@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Yes, it looks like I have duplicated bug #23144.

But that bug was supposed to be solved in Emacs 25.1, right?






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
       [not found]               ` <0cbd01d22fab$429aa5b0$c7cff110$@durham@ivor.cc>
@ 2016-10-26 18:30                 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-10-26 19:30                   ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]                   ` <0cf201d22fbf$64b861f0$2e2925d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-26 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Cc: <rgm@gnu.org>,
> 	<24707@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:06:14 -0700
> 
> Is it possible that the issue is that I'm seeing the problem on a remote
> display not the local display? If I am logged in locally at the workstation,
> the window opens normally. However, if I login over the LAN using SecureCRT
> on a Windows 10 system running VcXsrv then the resize problem occurs.

That's why I think it's a different problem, specific to that server
and/or the rest of your remote setup.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-26 18:30                 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-26 19:30                   ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]                   ` <0cf201d22fbf$64b861f0$2e2925d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-26 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Eli Zaretskii'; +Cc: 24707

So I can think of a couple of ways to try to diagnose this:
- Enable telnet into the workstation and use it instead of ssh so I can
capture unencrypted network traffic with Wireshark to see if the X protocol
communication reveals anything unusual.
- Try to build a debugging version of Emacs 25.1 locally, reproduce the
problem and then use gdb to break on whatever resize calls there are to find
what parameters are being passed and where they come from. I know nothing
about the Emacs implementation so this could be a bit of a time sink.

Any other ideas on how I should approach this?

-----Original Message-----
From: Eli Zaretskii [mailto:eliz@gnu.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:30 AM
To: Ivor Durham
Cc: rgm@gnu.org; 24707@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at
normal size

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Cc: <rgm@gnu.org>,
> 	<24707@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:06:14 -0700
> 
> Is it possible that the issue is that I'm seeing the problem on a 
> remote display not the local display? If I am logged in locally at the 
> workstation, the window opens normally. However, if I login over the 
> LAN using SecureCRT on a Windows 10 system running VcXsrv then the resize
problem occurs.

That's why I think it's a different problem, specific to that server and/or
the rest of your remote setup.






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
       [not found]                   ` <0cf201d22fbf$64b861f0$2e2925d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
@ 2016-10-26 19:49                     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-10-31 16:39                       ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]                       ` <01ca01d23395$65f51570$31df4050$@durham@ivor.cc>
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-26 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Cc: <rgm@gnu.org>,
> 	<24707@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 12:30:21 -0700
> 
> So I can think of a couple of ways to try to diagnose this:
> - Enable telnet into the workstation and use it instead of ssh so I can
> capture unencrypted network traffic with Wireshark to see if the X protocol
> communication reveals anything unusual.
> - Try to build a debugging version of Emacs 25.1 locally, reproduce the
> problem and then use gdb to break on whatever resize calls there are to find
> what parameters are being passed and where they come from. I know nothing
> about the Emacs implementation so this could be a bit of a time sink.
> 
> Any other ideas on how I should approach this?

The second approach is IMO the right one.  I think if you put a
breakpoint in adjust_frame_size, you will see all the resizes.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
  2016-10-26 19:49                     ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-10-31 16:39                       ` Ivor Durham
       [not found]                       ` <01ca01d23395$65f51570$31df4050$@durham@ivor.cc>
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ivor Durham @ 2016-10-31 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Eli Zaretskii'; +Cc: 24707

I used "git clone git://git.savannah.gnu.org/emacs.git" to clone and build
emacs which produced version 26.0.50.1. I used the following command to
configure it to get past some missing packages:

./configure --without-makeinfo --with-xpm=no --with-gif=no --with-gnutls=no

Running src/emacs -Q and src/emacs -q (shows the logo graphic) without doing
a full install both work as expected without resizing the window.

How do I fetch the 25.1 sources to try to reproduce & debug the problem with
the same version that is actually exhibiting the problem?

-----Original Message-----
From: Eli Zaretskii [mailto:eliz@gnu.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 12:50 PM
To: Ivor Durham
Cc: rgm@gnu.org; 24707@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at
normal size

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Cc: <rgm@gnu.org>,
> 	<24707@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 12:30:21 -0700
> 
> So I can think of a couple of ways to try to diagnose this:
> - Enable telnet into the workstation and use it instead of ssh so I 
> can capture unencrypted network traffic with Wireshark to see if the X 
> protocol communication reveals anything unusual.
> - Try to build a debugging version of Emacs 25.1 locally, reproduce 
> the problem and then use gdb to break on whatever resize calls there 
> are to find what parameters are being passed and where they come from. 
> I know nothing about the Emacs implementation so this could be a bit of a
time sink.
> 
> Any other ideas on how I should approach this?

The second approach is IMO the right one.  I think if you put a breakpoint
in adjust_frame_size, you will see all the resizes.






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size
       [not found]                       ` <01ca01d23395$65f51570$31df4050$@durham@ivor.cc>
@ 2016-10-31 20:43                         ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-31 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ivor Durham; +Cc: 24707

> From: "Ivor Durham" <ivor.durham@ivor.cc>
> Cc: <rgm@gnu.org>,
> 	<24707@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:39:49 -0700
> 
> How do I fetch the 25.1 sources to try to reproduce & debug the problem with
> the same version that is actually exhibiting the problem?

Emacs 25.1 is available from the GNU FTP server, ftp.gnu.org.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2016-10-31 20:43 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2016-10-16  7:27 bug#24707: 25.1; Window shrinks automatically after opening at normal size Ivor Durham
2016-10-16 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]   ` <012901d227dd$26d5fee0$7481fca0$@durham@ivor.cc>
2016-10-16 19:09     ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-16 19:34       ` Ivor Durham
2016-10-25 19:43       ` Ivor Durham
     [not found]       ` <0b8a01d22ef8$15455c80$3fd01580$@durham@ivor.cc>
2016-10-25 23:06         ` Glenn Morris
2016-10-26  8:22           ` Ivor Durham
     [not found]           ` <0c1a01d22f62$0bfce7f0$23f6b7d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
2016-10-26 12:02             ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-26 17:06               ` Ivor Durham
     [not found]               ` <0cbd01d22fab$429aa5b0$c7cff110$@durham@ivor.cc>
2016-10-26 18:30                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-26 19:30                   ` Ivor Durham
     [not found]                   ` <0cf201d22fbf$64b861f0$2e2925d0$@durham@ivor.cc>
2016-10-26 19:49                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-10-31 16:39                       ` Ivor Durham
     [not found]                       ` <01ca01d23395$65f51570$31df4050$@durham@ivor.cc>
2016-10-31 20:43                         ` Eli Zaretskii

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