From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: 20707@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#20707: [PROPOSED PATCH] Use curved quoting in C-generated errors
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 11:25:39 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20150612112539.GA3220@acm.fritz.box> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <557A46F2.50201@cs.ucla.edu>
Hello, Paul.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 07:41:54PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > My setup couldn't display curly single quotes
> Sure it could. It displayed curved single quotes as curved single quotes. Your
> objection was that your setup also displayed grave accent and apostrophe as
> curved single quotes (a style you happen to prefer), ....
No. The curly quotes had hijacked the glyphs for 0x27 and 0x60. I think
it likely that these glyphs originated as those for 0x27 and 0x60, and
were so before Unicode even existed.
> ... and you wanted your setup to display *different-shaped curves* for
> curved single quotes. This will not be not a problem to the few
> ordinary Emacs users who happen to use a similar obsolescent
> environment; they'll merely see nicely curved single quotes and move
> on.
That's pure speculation. So far, we've got one data point, me, and I was
not at all happy about this aliasing when I discovered it. Nobody has
yet chimed in and said they'd be happy about it on their own system.
> > none of them that I've seen so far have distinct glyphs for the curly
> > quotes.
> Again, distinct glyphs are not a requirement for ordinary Emacs users.
Again, we just don't know this one way or the other. Anyway I thought
we'd agreed on the WYSIWYG principle. With this aliasing, WYS is
ambiguous, WYG is not.
> That being said, for Emacs developers such as yourself, the
> Lat15-Terminus16 font I mentioned earlier has distinct glyphs for
> curved quotes, as does Lat15-TerminusBold16. You can find them
> archived at <http://bugs.gnu.org/20707>. There are many other choices
> in this area.
Yes, but of the standard fonts (i.e., those distributed in the kbd
GNU/Linux package) I'm not sure there're any with distinct glyphs for
curly quotes. I think whatever happens, messing around with fonts would
be needed for lots of console users.
> > That easiness remains controversial.
> It's certainly easier to read text quoted ‘like this’ than to read text quoted
> \`like this\'.
Yes, but marginally so. It's not easier to type it, electric-quote-mode
notwithstanding. Nobody's ever complained about \"like this\" in a
string. We all cope with far worse in complicated regular expressions.
> > To be useful, it would have to become the standard way of quoting
> > symbols.
> I doubt whether it'll be the standard. It's uglier and more complicated than
> the alternative. Its main advantage is that it's easier to type for users who
> want to type only ASCII.
The main advantage is that it would allow users to chose whether they want
curly quotes routinely in their doc strings.
How about another approach - leave the doc strings as they are, and
translate `foo-bar' to ?foo-bar? when doing C-h f/v, and so on? `..' is
used in doc strings mainly for quoting _symbols_, and it may well be that
that's the only use of this quoting style. Making this enhancement would
certainly be less work than changing several tens of thousands of
`foo-bar's in the source code.
> > Where do you see any portability hassles?
> Code might work when running on a typical Emacs system, but might fail on an
> Emacs system configured --without-curved-quotes, because Emacs will generate
> different strings that will be treated differently.
I can't see that. There'd just be displayable characters in the two
versions - why would it matter that they were different? Maybe if the
string were being passed to `read', there could be a difference, but in
that case it's the curly-quote version which is more likely to be
erroneous.
> > What exactly do you mean by "display problems fixed"?
> On the rare systems that don't display curved quotes as quotes, Emacs should
> display straight quotes as substitutes. That's good enough for these rare and
> obsolescent systems.
OK. I don't agree with this approach, of course.
> > I don't think it's TRT simply to curlify any quote typed within a string
> Electric Quote mode doesn't do that. If you type an apostrophe, it normally
> leaves the apostrophe alone. And in the rare cases where one really wants a
> grave accent and not a left single quote, it's easy enough to type C-q `.
OK. I hadn't tried typing just apostrophes. Sorry.
[ .... ]
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-06-12 11:25 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 46+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-06-01 7:39 bug#20707: [PROPOSED PATCH] Use curved quoting in C-generated errors Paul Eggert
[not found] ` <mailman.4052.1433144480.904.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2015-06-01 10:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-01 16:01 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-01 17:17 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-01 18:50 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-02 11:56 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-02 13:25 ` Drew Adams
2015-06-02 15:39 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-02 15:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-02 20:05 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-02 17:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-02 20:44 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-04 15:43 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-06 15:54 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-06 18:11 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-06 20:50 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-07 0:09 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-08 17:18 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-09 6:53 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-09 13:34 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-09 20:49 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-09 22:46 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-09 23:42 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-10 13:39 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-10 16:20 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-10 17:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-10 19:42 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-10 19:17 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-10 19:44 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-11 19:06 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-12 2:41 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-12 11:25 ` Alan Mackenzie [this message]
2015-06-12 23:46 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-13 11:54 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-13 17:54 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-07 13:17 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-06-09 16:58 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-02 23:26 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-01 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-01 16:48 ` Glenn Morris
2015-06-01 17:55 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-01 18:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-01 21:13 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-09 19:44 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-06-11 13:06 ` bug#20707: " Andy Moreton
2020-08-12 13:02 ` bug#20707: [PROPOSED PATCH] " Lars Ingebrigtsen
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