bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Howard Melman]

I see that the other-window and other-frame versions of
find-library were added in Emacs 26 but none of them were
bound to keys as discussed in Emacs bug#26712.  And if I'm
looking at the correct source tree, still aren't bound in
Emacs 28.  It seemed like there was concensus on replacing
the bindings of the find-function commands with new
find-function-or-library versions but the included patches
were never applied and the bug archived.

There was also discussion in bug#2270 that also didn't seem
to come to resolution.

I (bind and) use find-library all the time, typically to
view the source of a 3rd party package I've installed via
elpa (since entering the package name is easier than a
function name).  Is there a better way to do this?  If not,
could these commands be bound (possibly in Emacs 28)?

-- 

Howard

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Drew Adams]

> I see that the other-window and other-frame versions of
> find-library were added in Emacs 26 but none of them were
> bound to keys as discussed in Emacs bug#26712.  And if I'm
> looking at the correct source tree, still aren't bound in
> Emacs 28.  It seemed like there was concensus on replacing
> the bindings of the find-function commands with new
> find-function-or-library versions but the included patches
> were never applied and the bug archived.
> 
> There was also discussion in bug#2270 that also didn't seem
> to come to resolution.
> 
> I (bind and) use find-library all the time, typically to
> view the source of a 3rd party package I've installed via
> elpa (since entering the package name is easier than a
> function name).  Is there a better way to do this?  If not,
> could these commands be bound (possibly in Emacs 28)?

+1.

[But isn't this essentially bug #26712? and 2270?
(which was closed as Done, but with no key binding)]

IMO, we should bind `find-library-other-window' to
`C-x 4 l' and `find-library-other-frame' to `C-x 5 l'.
___

[And this is from someone who doesn't Emacs to waste
key bindings.  These bindings just make sense.  I
almost never use `find-library'.  I use `C-x 4 l'
(which, because I use non-nil `pop-up-frames', opens
in another frame).]
___

Maybe this will happen in another decade or two?...
I proposed this in 2007 (as soon as `find-library'
was added, if I'm not mistaken).

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Juri Linkov]

> IMO, we should bind `find-library-other-window' to
> `C-x 4 l' and `find-library-other-frame' to `C-x 5 l'.

Since other Emacs-Lisp specific keys are on the `C-h' key prefix
like `C-h f' and `C-h S', a key to find an Emacs-Lisp library
could find a place in the same `C-h' key prefix.

But I don't understand why it needs a new key - it already
works fine with 'C-x 4 f' and 'C-x 5 f' when point is on
the library name, then typing 'M-n' will get the library file.

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Drew Adams]

> > IMO, we should bind `find-library-other-window' to
> > `C-x 4 l' and `find-library-other-frame' to `C-x 5 l'.
> 
> Since other Emacs-Lisp specific keys are on the `C-h' key prefix
> like `C-h f' and `C-h S', a key to find an Emacs-Lisp library
> could find a place in the same `C-h' key prefix.

It's not about finding help information.
It's about finding a library - a file.  Do you
also propose to move the find-file commands to
the `C-h' prefix, because the command name is
"find"?  Moving `C-x 4 f' to `C-h <something>'?

> But I don't understand why it needs a new key - it already
> works fine with 'C-x 4 f' and 'C-x 5 f' when point is on
> the library name, then typing 'M-n' will get the library file.

It's not about the cursor being on the library
name.  It's about getting the library file
wherever you are, in whatever buffer, directory,
etc.

What's the big deal?  IIRC, in the last month
alone you've proposed (and grabbed) a _bunch_
of new default keys, no?

These find-library keys just make sense, IMO.

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Juri Linkov]

> What's the big deal?  IIRC, in the last month
> alone you've proposed (and grabbed) a _bunch_
> of new default keys, no?

No, I didn't grab no keys from you.

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Howard Melman]

On Oct 16, 2021, at 2:57 PM, Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> wrote:
> 
>> IMO, we should bind `find-library-other-window' to
>> `C-x 4 l' and `find-library-other-frame' to `C-x 5 l'.
> 
> Since other Emacs-Lisp specific keys are on the `C-h' key prefix
> like `C-h f' and `C-h S', a key to find an Emacs-Lisp library
> could find a place in the same `C-h' key prefix.

The other commands related to find-library are setup via
find-function-setup-keys.  The equivalents of find-library
are on C-x F, C-x K and C-x V and then on the C-x 4 and 
C-x 5 locations too.

> But I don't understand why it needs a new key - it already
> works fine with 'C-x 4 f' and 'C-x 5 f' when point is on
> the library name, then typing 'M-n' will get the library file.

I use this often if I want to visit a library regardless of what is
near point.  If I want to open embark (say because I just updated
it), I use C-x L and enter "embark" via completing-read.  
It's very convenient.

Howard

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Juri Linkov]

> The other commands related to find-library are setup via
> find-function-setup-keys.  The equivalents of find-library
> are on C-x F, C-x K and C-x V and then on the C-x 4 and
> C-x 5 locations too.

> I use this often if I want to visit a library regardless of what is
> near point.  If I want to open embark (say because I just updated
> it), I use C-x L and enter "embark" via completing-read.
> It's very convenient.

Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.

bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

> Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
> C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.

Makes sense to me.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Howard Melman]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:
>
>> Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
>> C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.
>
> Makes sense to me.

I don't see this in the tree.  Could this make it into
master or even Emacs 28?

--

Howard

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Drew Adams]

>> Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
>> C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.
> Makes sense to me.

Why is `L' needed, instead of `l', for `C-x [45]'?
(Why should you need to use the Shift key for this?)

Why is `C-x L' wasted on this?  That `L' would be a
perfectly good prefix key for something.

Is a same-window key binding even needed?  Do you
really think it will be used much?

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Howard Melman]

On Jan 3, 2022, at 5:40 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
>>> C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.
>> Makes sense to me.
> 
> Why is `L' needed, instead of `l', for `C-x [45]'?
> (Why should you need to use the Shift key for this?)
> 
> Why is `C-x L' wasted on this?  That `L' would be a
> perfectly good prefix key for something.
> 
> Is a same-window key binding even needed?  Do you
> really think it will be used much?

I answered all of these previously in this bug several months ago.

Juri and Lars agreed at the time, and I'm just trying to follow through to see the changes make it in.

Howard

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Drew Adams]

> I answered all of these previously in this bug several months ago.

Yeah, it sounds familiar.  I wasn't sure whether I'd
registered my disagreement and asked for reasons.
Sorry for the noise.

I see now, checking.  Your reason is that this is
similar to what `find-function-setup-keys' gives,
for finding a function.  (I don't see much of a
connection between finding libraries and finding
functions, but so be it.)

But if the idea is to emulate the model of
`find-function-setup-keys', then such find-library
bindings should be _created only by command_, e.g.,
`find-library-setup-keys' - not by default.

I don't at all object to someone using a command
that creates such a set of key bindings.  I object
to such _default_ key bindings - for the reasons
I gave.

It's one thing for someone to explicitly request
some key bindings (interactively or init file),
and a command is a convenient way to do that.

It's quite another thing for Emacs to assign keys
by default.

> Juri and Lars agreed at the time, and I'm just
> trying to follow through to see the changes make it in.

On n'arrete pas le progres...

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Howard Melman]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> I answered all of these previously in this bug several months ago.
>
> Yeah, it sounds familiar.  I wasn't sure whether I'd
> registered my disagreement and asked for reasons.
> Sorry for the noise.
>
> I see now, checking.  Your reason is that this is
> similar to what `find-function-setup-keys' gives,
> for finding a function.  (I don't see much of a
> connection between finding libraries and finding
> functions, but so be it.)
>
> But if the idea is to emulate the model of
> `find-function-setup-keys', then such find-library
> bindings should be _created only by command_, e.g.,
> `find-library-setup-keys' - not by default.

The concensus from a couple of months ago is explicitly to
add these 3 bindings to find-library-setup-keys just like
the others.  I would think if you had checked we could have
avoided this noise too.  ;)

-- 

Howard

bug#51240: [External] : bug#51240: 27.2; Binding find-library commands

[Drew Adams]

> > But if the idea is to emulate the model of
> > `find-function-setup-keys', then such find-library
> > bindings should be _created only by command_, e.g.,
> > `find-library-setup-keys' - not by default.
> 
> The concensus from a couple of months ago is explicitly to
> add these 3 bindings to find-library-setup-keys just like
> the others.  I would think if you had checked we could have
> avoided this noise too.  ;)

Sorry.  Good to hear.  (I guess you meant
`find-function-setup-keys'.)

bug#51240: bug#52074: 29.0.50; Add key binding for find-library

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

>> Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
>> C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.
>
> Makes sense to me.

So I've now done this in Emacs 29.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#51240: bug#52074: 29.0.50; Add key binding for find-library

[Drew Adams]

> >> Thanks for the explanation, I think it makes sense to add
> >> C-x L, C-x 4 L, C-x 5 L to find-function-setup-keys.
> >
> > Makes sense to me.
> 
> So I've now done this in Emacs 29.

Finally.

But as I said in bug #51240, which is a duplicate
of this one:

 [Isn't this essentially bug #26712? and 2270? (which
  was closed as Done, but with no key binding)]

At least 3 duplicate bugs, + discussion in emacs-devel.
15 years.

It's taken 15 years to get this done, from my initial
proposal to add the -other-window/frame versions, and
my suggestion of `C-x 4 l' and `C-x 5 l' bindings.

Yes, you should have used lowercase `l'.  From #26712:

  I almost _never_ use `count-lines-page', and I use
  `find-library-other-window' several times a day.
  And I'm probably one of the few people who actually
  does use page commands.  That's just not that useful
  a command, for me.)

And `find-function-setup-keys' shouldn't hardcode the
keys anyway - it should use a user option.

And this isn't even (at all) about finding a function.
There's no reason to put finding a _library_ on
`find-function-setup-keys'.  But I repeat myself...

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=2270

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=26712#8

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=26712#44

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2007-03/msg01073.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2007-06/msg01306.html