bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 22:34:07 +0100
> 
> I have identified a problem.  Let a user set the files to be used for
> Org Agenda in .emacs as follows, and consider the situation when the
> file writing.rcl.org does not exist.
> 
> (setq org-agenda-files
>    '("~/02histr/gadmin/writing.rcl.org"
>      "~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org"
>      "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org"))
> 
> Emacs demands that the file writing.rcl.org be removed from org-agenda-files.
> Then Emacs sabotages the user's settings by hardwiring org-agenda-files at the
> end of the file .emacs by inserting:
> 
> (custom-set-variables
>  ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom.
>  ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful.
>  ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance.
>  ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right.
>  '(org-agenda-files
>    '("~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org" "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org")))
> 
> This should be considered a bug.

Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> > From: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 22:34:07 +0100
> >
> > I have identified a problem.  Let a user set the files to be used for
> > Org Agenda in .emacs as follows, and consider the situation when the
> > file writing.rcl.org does not exist.
> >
> > (setq org-agenda-files
> >    '("~/02histr/gadmin/writing.rcl.org"
> >      "~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org"
> >      "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org"))
> >
> > Emacs demands that the file writing.rcl.org be removed from org-agenda-files.
> > Then Emacs sabotages the user's settings by hardwiring org-agenda-files at the
> > end of the file .emacs by inserting:
> >
> > (custom-set-variables
> >  ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom.
> >  ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful.
> >  ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance.
> >  ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right.
> >  '(org-agenda-files
> >    '("~/02histr/gadmin/meeting.rcl.org" "~/02histr/gadmin/household.rcl.org")))
> >
> > This should be considered a bug.
>
> Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?

What mailing should I use to report it to Org Developers?

>
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Basil L. Contovounesios]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM
>> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
>> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> Cc: 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Subject: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>> Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
>
> What mailing should I use to report it to Org Developers?

M-x org-submit-bug-report RET, which mails emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.

See also (info "(org) Feedback") in Emacs, or
https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html on the web,
and https://orgmode.org/community.html.

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:37 PM
> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@tcd.ie>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM
> >> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> Cc: 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Subject: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >> Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
> >
> > What mailing should I use to report it to Org Developers?
>
> M-x org-submit-bug-report RET, which mails emacs-orgmode@gnu.org.

Thank you Basil.

> See also (info "(org) Feedback") in Emacs, or
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html on the web,
> and https://orgmode.org/community.html.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Basil
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate channel.

You look at "Emacs Asking for help" and "Emacs Reporting bugs" and you get only two things
help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.  Have been following discussions here
and people herd together telling others they are doing everything backwards. And insisting
everything is fine, makes serious people not happy at all.  I do not want to hurt anyone,
but there exists a wall between maintainers and users who basically use Gnu Tools to do
something else.

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 5:29 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: daniela-spit@gmx.it, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2020-11-29 18:08]:
> > Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
>
> We have discussed that Org is part of Emacs and users shall be at all
> time welcome to report their bugs and pointers can be made how to
> closer report to Org mailing list. It makes it confusing to users, and
> is not logical. Org is part of Emacs so it is Emacs bug.
>
> While there is pointer under Org menu how to report the bug, it is not
> as obvious as "Help - Report Bug". So sometimes Org bugs will arrive
> here.
>
> Org bugs should be then simply forwarded to mailing list or tagged as
> being Org so that they may be picked up by mailing list.
>
> I find this more mailing list manager job to properly forward bugs.
>
> For Org one can submit {M-x org-submit-bug-report RET}
>
> For this bug, I do not think it is bug. Isn't it for all variables
> like that that when they are customized by user on top of the init
> file that they customization during the session will overwrite the
> customizations set by user on top of the init file?
>
> If this is so how I think, then users who do not want Emacs to
> overwrite their customization in init file should not use the
> customize for those variables. Then the user's customization will take
> effect.
>
> I do not see differences here with org-agenda.
>
> Are there any?
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:29:18 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: daniela-spit@gmx.it, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2020-11-29 18:08]:
> > Shouldn't this be reported to the Org developers?
> 
> We have discussed that Org is part of Emacs and users shall be at all
> time welcome to report their bugs and pointers can be made how to
> closer report to Org mailing list. It makes it confusing to users, and
> is not logical. Org is part of Emacs so it is Emacs bug.

In rare cases that users become confused, we gently tell them to
report to the Org developers.  Like in this case.  It's not a big
deal.

Org is a separate project with a separate mailing list and issue
tracker.  We just _distroibute_ it as part of Emacs.  That's not the
same as being an integral part of the project.

> I find this more mailing list manager job to properly forward bugs.

There is no manager here that forwards bugs.

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> In rare cases that users become confused, we gently tell them to
> report to the Org developers.

I think it's better all round to just reassign the bug to the "org-mode"
package.

> There is no manager here that forwards bugs.

And yet, all the messages in this thread (save the first) are already on
the Org mailing list...

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
> > Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
> > start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
> > channel.
>
> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
> completion such as ivy package.

For new users? Will never happen. Put the mailing lists in the damn webpage,
categorising them if necessary, but having them so anybody can see them.
Furthermore, Org is so integrated in Emacs that a large part of the user
community would not be in a position to determine whether it is a problem
of Emacs or Org.

> There is:
>
> - report-calc-bug
> - calc-report-bug
> - c-submit-bug-report
> - TeX-submit-bug-report
> - org and Emacs maybe others
>
> > You look at "Emacs Asking for help" and "Emacs Reporting bugs" and you get only two things
> > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.  Have been following discussions here
> > and people herd together telling others they are doing everything backwards. And insisting
> > everything is fine, makes serious people not happy at all.  I do not want to hurt anyone,
> > but there exists a wall between maintainers and users who basically use Gnu Tools to do
> > something else.
>
> Users could assign to themselves specific level such as Beginner,
> Intermediate, Advance and God.

God does not exist, get used to it!  Look, if you put the various lists there,
people would use them.  Making things difficult only wakes people give Emacs the
finger rather than concluding the developers are smart.  Does this not bother
Gnu Admins?

> Beginner would be welcomed to submit bugs and kindly explained that
> there exists specialized mailing list with more people able to help
> it.
>
> Intermediate user would be simply told to go somewhere else.
>
> Advanced user would be anyway submitting patches and be active in
> Emacs development, so there would be no problem with this level.
>
> God would never tell anything to anybody just as what is usual that
> God does, I guess M-x something...

As long as developers continue thinking they are gods. they will get
no respect.  Grow up and do it quick!

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:39 PM
> From: "Glenn Morris" <rgm@gnu.org>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org, daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
> > In rare cases that users become confused, we gently tell them to
> > report to the Org developers.

So now the maintainer starts telling users that they are rare cases
for being confused.  How can any woman stand this guy!!! Impossible.

> I think it's better all round to just reassign the bug to the "org-mode"
> package.
>
> > There is no manager here that forwards bugs.
>
> And yet, all the messages in this thread (save the first) are already on
> the Org mailing list...
>

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
> > Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
> > start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
> > channel.
>
> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
> completion such as ivy package.

Still in development?  How much thinking do people have to do
for this.  I can make 34 mailing lists in a few hours!

> There is:
>
> - report-calc-bug
> - calc-report-bug
> - c-submit-bug-report
> - TeX-submit-bug-report
> - org and Emacs maybe others
>
> > You look at "Emacs Asking for help" and "Emacs Reporting bugs" and you get only two things
> > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.  Have been following discussions here
> > and people herd together telling others they are doing everything backwards. And insisting
> > everything is fine, makes serious people not happy at all.  I do not want to hurt anyone,
> > but there exists a wall between maintainers and users who basically use Gnu Tools to do
> > something else.
>
> Users could assign to themselves specific level such as Beginner,
> Intermediate, Advance and God.
>
> Beginner would be welcomed to submit bugs and kindly explained that
> there exists specialized mailing list with more people able to help
> it.
>
> Intermediate user would be simply told to go somewhere else.
>
> Advanced user would be anyway submitting patches and be active in
> Emacs development, so there would be no problem with this level.
>
> God would never tell anything to anybody just as what is usual that
> God does, I guess M-x something...
>
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[gyro funch]

On 11/29/2020 11:08 AM, daniela-spit@gmx.it wrote:
> 
> 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
>> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
>> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
>>> Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
>>> start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
>>> channel.
>>
>> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
>> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
>> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
>> completion such as ivy package.
> 
> Still in development?  How much thinking do people have to do
> for this.  I can make 34 mailing lists in a few hours!
> 


If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.

Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.

-gyro

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 7:20 PM
> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> On 11/29/2020 11:08 AM, daniela-spit@gmx.it wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
> >> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
> >>> Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
> >>> start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
> >>> channel.
> >>
> >> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
> >> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
> >> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
> >> completion such as ivy package.
> >
> > Still in development?  How much thinking do people have to do
> > for this.  I can make 34 mailing lists in a few hours!
> >
>
>
> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>
> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.

Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
Loser!

> -gyro
>
>
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Kyle Meyer]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

>> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
[...]
>> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>>
>> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
>> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
>
> Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> Loser!

I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
other hand, has no place on this list.

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
> From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> [...]
> >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >>
> >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
> >
> > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> > Loser!

> I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
> other hand, has no place on this list.

One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
Another Gnu Goon.

Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Gyro Funch]

>
>>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
>>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>>
>>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>>  [...]
>>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>>  >>
>>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
>>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
>>  >
>>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
>>  > Loser!
>
>>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
>>  other hand, has no place on this list.
>
>One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
>is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
>Another Gnu Goon.

I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous, 
and helpful.
I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and 
the various responses you gave in this thread.
Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for 
others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get 
help.

Re: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
> >
> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >>
> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >>  [...]
> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
> >>  >
> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> >>  > Loser!
> >
> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
> >
> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
> >Another Gnu Goon.
>
> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
> and helpful.
> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
> the various responses you gave in this thread.
> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
> help.

Nonsense.

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Tim Cross]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
>> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
>> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
>> > Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
>> > start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
>> > channel.
>>
>> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
>> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
>> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
>> completion such as ivy package.
>
> Still in development?  How much thinking do people have to do
> for this.  I can make 34 mailing lists in a few hours!
>

if your so sure on how it should be done and how easy it is to do it,
then step up and do it. This is open source - there is nobody here paid
to do this, there is nobody here who has full responsibility. If there
is something you think is broken or not working as best as it could,
then it is up to you to step up and do something about it rather than
sniping from the sidelines about how it isn't good enough.

--
Tim Cross

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 12:51 AM
> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM
> >> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, 44935@debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >> * daniela-spit@gmx.it <daniela-spit@gmx.it> [2020-11-29 20:02]:
> >> > Correct, everything tells you it is part of Emacs.  Then one sends a report and people
> >> > start sending in in a long winded road to find the appropriate
> >> > channel.
> >>
> >> We can consider those features of reporting bugs still in
> >> development. I never knew since recently that there are various
> >> reporting bug functions. You can discover it easier by using
> >> completion such as ivy package.
> >
> > Still in development?  How much thinking do people have to do
> > for this.  I can make 34 mailing lists in a few hours!
> >
>
> if your so sure on how it should be done and how easy it is to do it,
> then step up and do it. This is open source - there is nobody here paid
> to do this, there is nobody here who has full responsibility. If there
> is something you think is broken or not working as best as it could,
> then it is up to you to step up and do something about it rather than
> sniping from the sidelines about how it isn't good enough.

Please follow the commentary in savannah-hackers
https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/savannah-hackers/2020-11/msg00085.html

I agree fully with Falcon's description.


---------------------
Christopher Dimech
General Administrator - Naiad Informatics - GNU Project (Geocomputation)
- Geophysical Simulation
- Geological Subsurface Mapping
- Disaster Preparedness and Mitigation
- Natural Resource Exploration and Production
- Free Software Advocacy

> Tim Cross
>
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Tim Cross]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
>> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>> >
>> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
>> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >>
>> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>> >>
>> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >>  [...]
>> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>> >>  >>
>> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
>> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
>> >>  >
>> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
>> >>  > Loser!
>> >
>> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
>> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
>> >
>> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
>> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
>> >Another Gnu Goon.
>>
>> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
>> and helpful.
>> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
>> the various responses you gave in this thread.
>> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
>> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
>> help.
>
> Nonsense.

Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.

the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.

--
Tim Cross

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >>
> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> >>  [...]
> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >> >>  >>
> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
> >> >>  >
> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> >> >>  > Loser!
> >> >
> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
> >> >
> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
> >>
> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
> >> and helpful.
> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
> >> help.
> >
> > Nonsense.
>
> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
>
> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.

Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure
org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants
non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped.

But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of the
org-agenda-files option.  The problem is known and has been a source of great
frustration, that's why it was introduced.

Daniela is quite right.  If multiple people don't want to help her, that's
fine, many others will.

---------------------
Christopher Dimech
General Administrator - Naiad Informatics - GNU Project (Geocomputation)
- Geophysical Simulation
- Geological Subsurface Mapping
- Disaster Preparedness and Mitigation
- Natural Resource Exploration and Production
- Free Software Advocacy


> --
> Tim Cross
>
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[daniela-spit]

 Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
>
> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >>
> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> >>  [...]
> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >> >>  >>
> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
> >> >>  >
> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> >> >>  > Loser!
> >> >
> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
> >> >
> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
> >>
> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
> >> and helpful.
> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
> >> help.
> >
> > Nonsense.
>
> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
>
> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.

Look.  First I was an an emacs mailing list, then was told that it was not
the right place.  Then was directed to sent it here, etc etc.  Then all the
talk about being volunteers and only do things when they like.  WTF!


> --
> Tim Cross
>
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Tim Cross]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
>> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
>> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>>
>> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
>> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
>> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >> >>
>> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >> >>  [...]
>> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>> >> >>  >>
>> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
>> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
>> >> >>  >
>> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
>> >> >>  > Loser!
>> >> >
>> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
>> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
>> >> >
>> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
>> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
>> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
>> >>
>> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
>> >> and helpful.
>> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
>> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
>> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
>> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
>> >> help.
>> >
>> > Nonsense.
>>
>> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
>> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
>> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
>> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
>> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
>> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
>> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
>> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
>>
>> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
>> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.
>
> Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure
> org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants
> non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped.
>
> But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of the
> org-agenda-files option.  The problem is known and has been a source of great
> frustration, that's why it was introduced.
>
> Daniela is quite right.  If multiple people don't want to help her, that's
> fine, many others will.
>

The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how
org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the
documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and
being respectful.

We can disagree on things. Opposing views are a good thing provided the
expression of these opposing views is done with respect. This means no
personal attacks, no calling names, no personal abuse.

We all have different levels of sensitivity and some have thicker skin
than others. However, once multiple people express the opinion that an
attitude is not appropriate for the list, the responsibility is with the
originator to consider that feedback and either adjust to meet community
expectations, leave the community or continue without change and accept
whatever consequences (if any) the list decides is appropriate.

--
Tim Cross

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Tim Cross]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

>  Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
>> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
>> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>>
>> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
>> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
>> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >> >>
>> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >> >>  [...]
>> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>> >> >>  >>
>> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
>> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
>> >> >>  >
>> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
>> >> >>  > Loser!
>> >> >
>> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
>> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
>> >> >
>> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
>> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
>> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
>> >>
>> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
>> >> and helpful.
>> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
>> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
>> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
>> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
>> >> help.
>> >
>> > Nonsense.
>>
>> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
>> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
>> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
>> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
>> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
>> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
>> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
>> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
>>
>> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
>> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.
>
> Look.  First I was an an emacs mailing list, then was told that it was not
> the right place.  Then was directed to sent it here, etc etc.  Then all the
> talk about being volunteers and only do things when they like.  WTF!
>

Even though it might not seem like it, many on this list, including me,
understand your frustration. This is not the first time people have
expressed frustration with how bug reports are managed on the list.

However, what you are likely not ware of are many of the complicating
factors involved which have made it difficult to implement a better
solution. To understand that, you really need to look at the many
threads on both the org and emacs development list where the issue of
bug reporting has been discussed.

You might say you don't care about all of that and just want to be able
to easily report an issue and know it reaches the right people. That is
fair enough. You may even have a need to express that frustration, which
is also fair enough. However, attributing that failure to laziness,
incompetence or lack of interest in doing something is not. Name calling
and personal abuse is unacceptable regardless of the situation or level
of frustration.

Once you have expressed frustration about something, there is little
gained by repetition. At the end of the day, it is how it is and if we
cannot do something about it, such as providing a patch or improve the
documentation or define a new process and work towards getting it
implemented, we either have to accept it or walk away.

--
Tim Cross

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:59 AM
> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
> >> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> >> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >>
> >> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >>
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
> >> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
> >> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> >> >>  [...]
> >> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >> >> >>  >>
> >> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> >> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
> >> >> >>  >
> >> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> >> >> >>  > Loser!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
> >> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
> >> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
> >> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
> >> >> and helpful.
> >> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
> >> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
> >> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
> >> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
> >> >> help.
> >> >
> >> > Nonsense.
> >>
> >> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
> >> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
> >> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
> >> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
> >> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
> >> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
> >> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
> >> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
> >>
> >> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
> >> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.
> >
> > Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure
> > org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants
> > non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped.
> >
> > But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of the
> > org-agenda-files option.  The problem is known and has been a source of great
> > frustration, that's why it was introduced.
> >
> > Daniela is quite right.  If multiple people don't want to help her, that's
> > fine, many others will.
> >
>
> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how
> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the
> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and
> being respectful.
>
> We can disagree on things. Opposing views are a good thing provided the
> expression of these opposing views is done with respect. This means no
> personal attacks, no calling names, no personal abuse.
>
> We all have different levels of sensitivity and some have thicker skin
> than others. However, once multiple people express the opinion that an
> attitude is not appropriate for the list, the responsibility is with the
> originator to consider that feedback and either adjust to meet community
> expectations, leave the community or continue without change and accept
> whatever consequences (if any) the list decides is appropriate.

Ok, let me deal with this.  But please, can we be better ourselves.  Am
sure she wanted to send a report so things get better for others.  She
knew how to solve the problem by only putting a list of files that exist.

Furthermore, we are updating the manual on the available option that
addressed her problem, a detail that was most likely obscure.  Some good
she has done.  We are not doing the work specifically for her,
but to everybody.  Agreed?


> --
> Tim Cross
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Tim Cross]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:59 AM
>> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
>> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
>> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>>
>>
>> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>>
>> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
>> >> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
>> >> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>> >>
>> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
>> >> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
>> >> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
>> >> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
>> >> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> >> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >>  [...]
>> >> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
>> >> >> >>  >>
>> >> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
>> >> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
>> >> >> >>  >
>> >> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
>> >> >> >>  > Loser!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
>> >> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
>> >> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
>> >> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
>> >> >> and helpful.
>> >> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
>> >> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
>> >> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
>> >> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
>> >> >> help.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nonsense.
>> >>
>> >> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
>> >> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
>> >> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
>> >> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
>> >> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
>> >> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
>> >> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
>> >> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
>> >>
>> >> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
>> >> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.
>> >
>> > Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure
>> > org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants
>> > non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped.
>> >
>> > But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of the
>> > org-agenda-files option.  The problem is known and has been a source of great
>> > frustration, that's why it was introduced.
>> >
>> > Daniela is quite right.  If multiple people don't want to help her, that's
>> > fine, many others will.
>> >
>>
>> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how
>> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the
>> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and
>> being respectful.
>>
>> We can disagree on things. Opposing views are a good thing provided the
>> expression of these opposing views is done with respect. This means no
>> personal attacks, no calling names, no personal abuse.
>>
>> We all have different levels of sensitivity and some have thicker skin
>> than others. However, once multiple people express the opinion that an
>> attitude is not appropriate for the list, the responsibility is with the
>> originator to consider that feedback and either adjust to meet community
>> expectations, leave the community or continue without change and accept
>> whatever consequences (if any) the list decides is appropriate.
>
> Ok, let me deal with this.  But please, can we be better ourselves.  Am
> sure she wanted to send a report so things get better for others.  She
> knew how to solve the problem by only putting a list of files that exist.
>
> Furthermore, we are updating the manual on the available option that
> addressed her problem, a detail that was most likely obscure.  Some good
> she has done.  We are not doing the work specifically for her,
> but to everybody.  Agreed?
>

Agreed. My only issue was when things degraded into personal attacks and
insults. While I don't subscribe to the belief every opinion is valid, I
do subscribe to the belief everyone has the right to express an opinion,
provided it is respectful. I also believe when someone expresses an
opinion in a manner which lacks such respect, we need to call it out so
that the individual becomes aware of what is expected or when what they
have written may not have come across correctly. This is a
multi-cultural community where English is not necessarily the posters
native language and communication can break down because of cultural and
language differences. As far as I'm concerned, both the underlying issue
relating to org-adenda-files is mostly dealt with and expectations
regarding communication standards have been communicated.

I say mostly dealt with because I'm not sure that org *should* update
the org-agenda-files list when a missing file is identified and org has
not been told to ignore missing files. I need to experiment with this to
clarify my position, but based on what I've read in the thread which
clarified the issue, I suspect org should report a warning, but not
modify the variable in a permanent manner by writing it to the custom
section. It could set the variable for the current session if that is
required to prevent other issues, but not store it for future sessions.

I don't think the original bug report was very clear on precisely what
the issue was. This is not uncommon with bug reports, but I suspect
language differences may have played a role here.

--
Tim Cross

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 3:50 AM
> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
>
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:59 AM
> >> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> >> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >>
> >>
> >> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> >>
> >> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM
> >> >> From: "Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>
> >> >> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM
> >> >> >> From: "Gyro Funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> >> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM
> >> >> >> >>  From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@kyleam.com>
> >> >> >> >>  To: daniela-spit@gmx.it
> >> >> >> >>  Cc: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> >> >> >>  Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  >> From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> >> >> >> >>  [...]
> >> >> >> >>  >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >> >> >> >>  >>
> >> >> >> >>  >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> >> >> >> >>  >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.
> >> >> >> >>  >
> >> >> >> >>  > Is there a mailing list for abuse?  If I want abuse I shall ask for it.
> >> >> >> >>  > Loser!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>  I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse.  Name calling, on the
> >> >> >> >>  other hand, has no place on this list.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself.  If there
> >> >> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves.  And now you start.
> >> >> >> >Another Gnu Goon.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous,
> >> >> >> and helpful.
> >> >> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and
> >> >> >> the various responses you gave in this thread.
> >> >> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for
> >> >> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get
> >> >> >> help.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Nonsense.
> >> >>
> >> >> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can
> >> >> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but
> >> >> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in
> >> >> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling
> >> >> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour
> >> >> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your
> >> >> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you
> >> >> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively.
> >> >>
> >> >> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others
> >> >> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward.
> >> >
> >> > Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure
> >> > org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants
> >> > non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped.
> >> >
> >> > But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of the
> >> > org-agenda-files option.  The problem is known and has been a source of great
> >> > frustration, that's why it was introduced.
> >> >
> >> > Daniela is quite right.  If multiple people don't want to help her, that's
> >> > fine, many others will.
> >> >
> >>
> >> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how
> >> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the
> >> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and
> >> being respectful.
> >>
> >> We can disagree on things. Opposing views are a good thing provided the
> >> expression of these opposing views is done with respect. This means no
> >> personal attacks, no calling names, no personal abuse.
> >>
> >> We all have different levels of sensitivity and some have thicker skin
> >> than others. However, once multiple people express the opinion that an
> >> attitude is not appropriate for the list, the responsibility is with the
> >> originator to consider that feedback and either adjust to meet community
> >> expectations, leave the community or continue without change and accept
> >> whatever consequences (if any) the list decides is appropriate.
> >
> > Ok, let me deal with this.  But please, can we be better ourselves.  Am
> > sure she wanted to send a report so things get better for others.  She
> > knew how to solve the problem by only putting a list of files that exist.
> >
> > Furthermore, we are updating the manual on the available option that
> > addressed her problem, a detail that was most likely obscure.  Some good
> > she has done.  We are not doing the work specifically for her,
> > but to everybody.  Agreed?
> >
>
> Agreed. My only issue was when things degraded into personal attacks and
> insults. While I don't subscribe to the belief every opinion is valid, I
> do subscribe to the belief everyone has the right to express an opinion,
> provided it is respectful. I also believe when someone expresses an
> opinion in a manner which lacks such respect, we need to call it out so
> that the individual becomes aware of what is expected or when what they
> have written may not have come across correctly. This is a
> multi-cultural community where English is not necessarily the posters
> native language and communication can break down because of cultural and
> language differences. As far as I'm concerned, both the underlying issue
> relating to org-adenda-files is mostly dealt with and expectations
> regarding communication standards have been communicated.

Because of cultural and language differences we should allow some slack.
I understand your point.  Still mailing lists are there to help, so if
people are busy they should remember that mailing lists are there to
respond, not to tell them that we have no time and they better bugger off.

When users' messages and consistently rude, I find no problem making a
removal.  Let's not be too quick.  Have no doubt you can understand
this.

> I say mostly dealt with because I'm not sure that org *should* update
> the org-agenda-files list when a missing file is identified and org has
> not been told to ignore missing files. I need to experiment with this to
> clarify my position, but based on what I've read in the thread which
> clarified the issue, I suspect org should report a warning, but not
> modify the variable in a permanent manner by writing it to the custom
> section. It could set the variable for the current session if that is
> required to prevent other issues, but not store it for future sessions.
>
> I don't think the original bug report was very clear on precisely what
> the issue was. This is not uncommon with bug reports, but I suspect
> language differences may have played a role here.

Yes.

> --
> Tim Cross
>
>

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Jean Louis]

* Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 04:00]:
> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how
> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the
> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and
> being respectful.

I think it would be best if the actual technical issue would be put
attention to and get solved as that is where problem comes from.

Every person reporting Emacs bug is very important. Finally it is
contributor to Emacs.

People use Emacs to handle their life problems. When user stumbles
upon an obstacle that is life related obstacle. It has practical
meanings related to life that are difficult to realize on distance
through a thin medium of email communication.

When the true obstacle is not handled it is quite logical that it may
lead to frustrations. It may not, but "it may" is enough and one shall
try to handle the obstacle and not put attention on frustration that
derives from the obstacle, as where one puts attention that is what
one gets.

Person is not first being surprised that M-x report-emacs-bug is not
handled as Emacs Bug. I think that alone is definitely a bug, and we
recently discussed it, and here we are again.

Good read for participants:

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
==================================
   Author: Richard Stallman
     Type: WWW
Hyperlink: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Instead of using programming to automate WHERE the bug related to
org-mode should be routed there is lack of consensus and now we have:

,----
| M-x report-emacs-bug
| 
| M-x org-submit-bug-report
| 
| M-x TeX-submit-bug-report
| 
| M-x lm-report-bug
`----

and so on. Emacs is already taking user's data and inserting into the
buffer to send email. Why it does not ask user to which part the bug
relates?

,----
| - Do you wish to designate mode to which this bug relates?
|   - Org mode
|   - TeX mode
|   - General editing
`----

After that question the email can have a tag [org-mode] and upon the
tag the maildrop or procmail or other email filter could forward the
bug to specific mailing list. Simple really. Standard GNU/Linux and
Unix handling of emails.

Various mailing lists arrive to my IMAP by being sorted first by the
`maildrop' command line tool.

Examples:

,----
| if ((/^To:.*emacs\-devel/))
| {
|    to "./Maildir/.emacs-devel/."
| }
`----

If email is written to `emacs-devel' please sort it in this folder. In
this fashion I can make a filter:

- if email has a tag: [org-mode] please send it to THIS-EMAIL-ADDRESS

Then emacs-report-bug could rank the user among beginner, intermediate
and advance.

Then we have the contradiction in description:

Is the Org mode part of Emacs? One gets it with Emacs so it is part of
Emacs. 

Then somebody may say it is part of Emacs but somebody will tell it is
not part of Emacs. 

Without listening I can observe that Org is part of Emacs and it says
so in the org.el and what is written is what is presented to users and
one need not bring these doubts onto user about facts that are clearly
there. Those are issues to be discussed beyond users' bugs.

I look at those things from a tolerant view point and that issues
reported shall better be solved in welcoming manner.

Fact is that Org is part of GNU Emacs.

,----
| ;;; org.el --- Outline-based notes management and organizer -*- lexical-binding: t; -*-
| 
| ;; Carstens outline-mode for keeping track of everything.
| ;; Copyright (C) 2004-2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
| 
| ;; Version: 9.4
| 
| ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs.
`----

Another ways but mail filtering ways of handling bugs that should be
forwarded to org mailing list can be very simple:

- let us discuss that it is fine to forward such issues to Org mailing
  list. Issue may arrive to help-gnu-emacs mailing list and could be
  copied to org mailing list as well by some of participants. Is this
  alright to do?

- people who are subscribed to emacs bugs mailing list could simply
  forward it to mailing list. In Mutt email reader that is very
  simple, I can or could just bounce the email or forward email to
  another email address and rmail and other email readers have same
  functions. Easy peasy.

- some people from Org mailing list may get subscribed to bug tracker
  and review emails there, when they answer the bug they may include
  org mailing list.

- let us work cooperative and in welcoming manner and without
  introduction of doubts

It is that simple.

Side reference from November 2020 that shows that it is legitimate to
report Org issues to Emacs bug mailing list, finally Org is part of
Emacs:

- Org issue does get discussed on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01832.html

- person reports Org issue to Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01672.html

- another Org issue handled on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg02176.html

- including Org in Emacs is discussed on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01649.html

- Org export on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01613.html

- Org issue on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg00576.html

There will be more coming.

Let us think of Emacs users. There are very many that will never even
report a bug as people do not like to get confronted with elitism or
similar attitudes like "I know it better and you don't know".

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Jean Louis]

> > From: "gyro funch" <gyromagnetic@gmail.com>
> > To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
> > If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers.
> >
> > Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other
> > people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden.

Those overworked, to shoulder the burden people need not answer any
issue. They are volunteers, so they need not answer. There will be
those who may answer.

Process I see there is:

- please report the bug! You are welcome
- user reports the bug
- why you reported the bug here? Report somewhere else.
- user asks where to report the bug and wonders why that routing
- user does report the bug to other place
- user is told not to ask other people

While all that has deeper meanings for one set of people and one may
understand it, there will be those pissed off who cannot understand
what is happening.

Please look at processes going on, analyze processes and what those
processes are not well designed when we have Emacs with programming
language to route users accordingly.

In the end neither developers will get insights from users about
potential bugs neither users will resolve the issue.

Final question is if problem with org-agenda-files got resolved?

Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 551 bytes --]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 01:05:15AM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:

[...]

> Please follow the commentary in savannah-hackers
> https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/savannah-hackers/2020-11/msg00085.html
> 
> I agree fully with Falcon's description.

Just from a sideline: "Falcon's description" pointing to a huge post
with many aspects, some related to here, and some not, doesn't seem
helpful to focus here. Could you state your point (as far as it is
related to the current thread's topic) in a couple of sentences?

Thanks
 - t

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

daniela-spit@gmx.it writes:

> So now the maintainer starts telling users that they are rare cases
> for being confused.  How can any woman stand this guy!!! Impossible.

I'm closing this bug report.  If there's anything more to be done here,
please report the bug to the Org maintainers.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no