[Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Alex Bochannek]

I just finished reading through a few hundred emacs-orgmode messages
and I have to say that Org-mode changed quite a bit since the 4.12
version I have been using :-)

I find the discussions about usage and the numerous little enhancement
requests fascinating. And while Carsten tries really hard to keep
Org-mode focused, there have been many creative uses discussed on the
list and related improvements implemented.

What is the predominant use case for Org-mode by people on this list?
It seems to me that there is a fair amount of GTD, task scheduling,
and project tracking usage. Some mention of note taking and very
little of traditional outlining, it seems.

Related to outlining, I am wondering if anybody here uses graphical
tools like concept maps? I have been pretty happy with CmapTools as a
concept mapping tool and while it does allow for an outline import, I
am not sure how well the two concepts fit together.

One of the main features of concept maps, which distinguishes them
from mind maps, is the use of propositions, which consist of concepts
and linking words. Have a look at <http://cmap.ihmc.us/> for some
examples and
<http://cmap.ihmc.us/Publications/ResearchPapers/TheoryCmaps/TheoryUnderlyingConceptMaps.htm>
for a lengthy discussion of the theory behind concept mapping.

Concept maps are pretty much just directed graphs and allow for a lot
of flexibility. The basic structure of the outline format CmapTools
can import is reasonably straighforward:

Concept1
|    Link1
|        Concept2
|        |    Link2
|        |        Concept4
|        Concept3
|        |    Link3
|        |        Concept5
|        |        Concept4

etc.

Note that links can branch and connect to other concepts and that all
names have to be unique.

Is this something that would be an interesting export option for
Org-mode? How would linking words work? They are usually verbs to
build the propositions and it seems awkward to make those headlines.

Any comments, ideas, suggestions?

Alex.

Re: [Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[David O'Toole]

Alex Bochannek <alexb@juniper.net> writes:

> It seems to me that there is a fair amount of GTD, task scheduling,
> and project tracking usage. Some mention of note taking and very
> little of traditional outlining, it seems.

I use the outlining heavily to outline and structure documents and
projects with many parts. Few of my TODOs are first-level headings.
headings... they're always two or three or four stars in. But I have a
friend who makes big files with TODOs all as first-level
headings. There are many ways to use org-mode :-)

I also use Carsten's outline-magic.el (which feels like org-mode with
its visibility cycling) to organize and get overviews of source code
in my emacs lisp projects.

Side question: Carsten, did you get a chance to integrate my bugfix
into the version of outline-magic available on your site? I still use
a locally fixed version, but i think others might like to have their
source code cycle like orgmode buffers do. 

> Concept1
> |    Link1
> |        Concept2
> |        |    Link2
> |        |        Concept4
> |        Concept3
> |        |    Link3
> |        |        Concept5
> |        |        Concept4

Interesting. 

Couldn't the links be modeled with org-mode tags and just make
everything headings? Um, it'd be postfix notation but at least it
could work I think... see below. This could possibly be processed and
exported into a map, or even a diagram for GNU Pic or something. 

---------------------------------------
Concept1
        Concept2                :link1:
                Concept 4       :link2:
        Concept3                :link1:
                Concept5        :link3:
                Concept4        :link3:        
---------------------------------------

-- 
David O'Toole 
dto@gnu.org
http://dto.freeshell.org/notebook/

Re: [Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Christopher Kuettner]

>Carsten tries really hard to keep Org-mode focused

This is important, IMHO one of org-mode strenghts is it's lightweightness.


> What is the predominant use case for Org-mode by people on this list?

1. knowledge-gathering for writing/research-projects via one-file-wikis 
(cool because I don't have to give PageTitles and other Meta-crap; 
convenient because I can create * TODO research bookmarks)

2. project tracking for some kind of projects

3. tables (org-mode frees me from having to use a "real" spreadsheet; 
what a relief)


>very little of traditional outlining, it seems.

When I am at that stage (writing the first draft of a work),  the 
emphasizes lies more on the writing/printing/publishing/output.  On 
Emacs for example Muse-Mode is better suited for that.  The strengths of 
Org-Mode are more in the beginning of work, when one is collecting the 
data and developing structures, concepts and relationships.


> Related to outlining, I am wondering if anybody here uses graphical
> tools like concept maps? 

Yeah, every week with pen and paper.


> happy with CmapTools
> Is this something that would be an interesting export option for
> Org-mode? 

I can imagine using this as some sort of process-management tool.  For 
example to illustrate who is doing what in a working team under which 
condition.  Basically as sort of communications help.


> How would linking words work? They are usually verbs to
> build the propositions and it seems awkward to make those headlines.

As far as I understand the concept, it seems reasonable to make the 
propositions (sub)headlines and to put the linkage-information beneath 
the headlines.

Re: [Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Alex Bochannek]

David, Christopher,

Thanks for the responses. Comments below.

"David O'Toole" <dto@gnu.org> writes:

> I use the outlining heavily to outline and structure documents and
> projects with many parts. Few of my TODOs are first-level headings.
> headings... they're always two or three or four stars in. But I have a
> friend who makes big files with TODOs all as first-level
> headings. There are many ways to use org-mode :-)

It's interesting to hear that you are using it that way. Christopher's
example below seems to be along the same line although he appears to
break early from Org-mode and move to Muse (assuming I interpreted
this correctly) in the document creation.

Incidentally, I am using Org-mode almost exclusively for taking notes
these days.

"David O'Toole" <dto@gnu.org> writes:

> I also use Carsten's outline-magic.el (which feels like org-mode with
> its visibility cycling) to organize and get overviews of source code
> in my emacs lisp projects.

I have not tried outline-magic.el, but it sounds interesting.

Christopher Kuettner <ckuettner@gmail.com> writes:

>>Carsten tries really hard to keep Org-mode focused
>
> This is important, IMHO one of org-mode strenghts is it's lightweightness.

Concurred!

Christopher Kuettner <ckuettner@gmail.com> writes:

>> What is the predominant use case for Org-mode by people on this list?
>
> 1. knowledge-gathering for writing/research-projects via
> one-file-wikis (cool because I don't have to give PageTitles and other
> Meta-crap; convenient because I can create * TODO research bookmarks)

This is interesting. I would suggest that this is similar to the
example that was mentioned on the list of using Org-mode to aid in
code comprehension when following Elisp code. Really no different if
you read through some code and take notes or if you keep track of
URLs, for example.

Christopher Kuettner <ckuettner@gmail.com> writes:

> 2. project tracking for some kind of projects
>
> 3. tables (org-mode frees me from having to use a "real" spreadsheet;
> what a relief)

Example 2 is what I think a lot (most?) people use Org-mode for. The
tables I totally forgot about when I wrote my last email, but I have
used them as well when trying to document some problems. I always
wondered, tables seem like a bit of feature creep to me. They are very
useful and I am sure Carsten implemented them for a reason, but with
SES and Calc, I wonder if they aren't acquiring too much in terms of
spreadsheet functionality.

Christopher Kuettner <ckuettner@gmail.com> writes:

>>very little of traditional outlining, it seems.
>
> When I am at that stage (writing the first draft of a work),  the
> emphasizes lies more on the writing/printing/publishing/output.  On
> Emacs for example Muse-Mode is better suited for that.  The strengths
> of Org-Mode are more in the beginning of work, when one is collecting
> the data and developing structures, concepts and relationships.

See above. I hope I didn't misinterpret this and you aren't actually
using Muse.

On to concept maps.

"David O'Toole" <dto@gnu.org> writes:

> Couldn't the links be modeled with org-mode tags and just make
> everything headings? Um, it'd be postfix notation but at least it
> could work I think... see below. This could possibly be processed and
> exported into a map, or even a diagram for GNU Pic or something. 
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Concept1
>         Concept2                :link1:
>                 Concept 4       :link2:
>         Concept3                :link1:
>                 Concept5        :link3:
>                 Concept4        :link3:        
> ---------------------------------------

I thought about this and it seems a bit unnatural and also wouldn't
allow you to embed concept outlines into another document that you
want to use tags for.

I don't remember, is there a way to use org-publish to only export a
region?

And speaking of feature creep: How about some Graphviz output :-)

Christopher Kuettner <ckuettner@gmail.com> writes:

>> happy with CmapTools
>> Is this something that would be an interesting export option for
>> Org-mode? 
>
> I can imagine using this as some sort of process-management tool.  For
> example to illustrate who is doing what in a working team under which
> condition.  Basically as sort of communications help.

I have done this before where I used CmapTools as a brainstorming aid
to determine how responsibilities are delineated. That worked out
pretty well.

I guess what would be neat is to use a textual representation to get
the rough structure outlined and then use a concept mapping tool for
the elaboration. Combine this with a projector and something like
<http://www.mimio.com/products/studio/> and that could be really
productive.

Christopher Kuettner <ckuettner@gmail.com> writes:

>> How would linking words work? They are usually verbs to
>> build the propositions and it seems awkward to make those headlines.
>
> As far as I understand the concept, it seems reasonable to make the
> propositions (sub)headlines and to put the linkage-information beneath
> the headlines.

That might work. It would potentially produce lots of indentation
levels, but I think I would like this better than tags. It doesn't
quite capture the difference between a verb and a concept, but that
may not be a problem in the initial creation phase.

Alex.

Re: [Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[chris]

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On 10/09/06, Alex Bochannek <alexb@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> What is the predominant use case for Org-mode by people on this list?
> It seems to me that there is a fair amount of GTD, task scheduling,
> and project tracking usage. Some mention of note taking and very
> little of traditional outlining, it seems.


Perhaps because Org-Mode just does the job of note taking so well, no
further enhancements are needed?

Myself, I use it to document the work I do (so note taking primarily, some
task scheduling and some project tracking).  I put a single Readme.org file
in a directory, then include excerpts from emails about that piece of work,
links to scripts which run the various analyses with overview documentation
mostly in the org file, excerpts of results, TODO/DONE items to schedule
stuff that can't be done right away.  Then I can create an html-export, and
give my colleagues on the same project a link so they can always check up on
where it's at, etc.  These Readme.org files can get quite huge, and the
outlining/TAGS functionality means they remain navigatable.

I hadn't considered concept maps, but see these could be very useful in the
development stage of projects - thanks for the tip!  I'm not clear, though,
how these would work in org-mode (without export to graphviz or similar).

C.

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Re: [Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Carsten Dominik]

On Sep 11, 2006, at 5:51, Alex Bochannek wrote:
>> 3. tables (org-mode frees me from having to use a "real" spreadsheet;
>> what a relief)
>
> Example 2 is what I think a lot (most?) people use Org-mode for. The
> tables I totally forgot about when I wrote my last email, but I have
> used them as well when trying to document some problems. I always
> wondered, tables seem like a bit of feature creep to me. They are very
> useful and I am sure Carsten implemented them for a reason, but with
> SES and Calc, I wonder if they aren't acquiring too much in terms of
> spreadsheet functionality.

:-)  I have to comment on this.  I would easily plead guilty for 
feature creep as far as the "advanced calculation features" (manual 
section 3.3.4) are concerned.  These I implemented mostly because it 
was fun and a challenge to do so.  (I myself certainly do use a lot the 
simple calculation features, the ones that just use one formula for 
each column, but for complicated tables also I use spreadsheets (not 
SES, though.))

However, the basic table support is a completely different story, and 
for me is an essential and critical feature of Org-mode.  Tables are 
the main reason why I use Org-mode as my default major mode in emacs - 
fundamental and text mode I actually never use anymore, because I want 
to have the table support to easily write columns of date, arrange 
things nicely and quickly.

- Carsten



--
Carsten Dominik
Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
Universiteit van Amsterdam
Kruislaan 403
NL-1098SJ Amsterdam
phone: +31 20 525 7477

Re: [Orgmode] Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Carsten Dominik]

On Sep 10, 2006, at 14:57, David O'Toole wrote:

> I also use Carsten's outline-magic.el (which feels like org-mode with
> its visibility cycling) to organize and get overviews of source code
> in my emacs lisp projects.
>
> Side question: Carsten, did you get a chance to integrate my bugfix
> into the version of outline-magic available on your site? I still use
> a locally fixed version, but i think others might like to have their
> source code cycle like orgmode buffers do.
>

I have not yet updated outline-magic, not found the time yet.
However, if you are just interested in using visibility cycling for 
outline-mode and outline-minor mode, you can bind the corresponding 
org-mode functions also in these modes.  For outline-minor-mode, here 
is what I have in .emacs to do this:

(add-hook 'outline-minor-mode-hook
   (lambda ()
     (define-key outline-minor-mode-map [(control tab)] 'org-cycle)
     (define-key outline-minor-mode-map [(shift tab)] 
'org-global-cycle)))

(add-hook 'emacs-lisp-mode-hook 'outline-minor-mode)


The problem is that in most major modes, TAB is used for indentation, 
so we cannot use it for cycling.  The implementation above makes S-TAB 
do global cycling just line in Org-mode, but the local cycling is done 
with C-TAB.

To get cycling in outline-mode itself, we can in fact use TAB, so for 
outline-mode I use

(add-hook 'outline-mode-hook
   (lambda ()
     (define-key outline-mode-map [(tab)] 'org-cycle)
     (define-key outline-mode-map [(shift tab)] 'org-global-cycle)))

- Carsten



--
Carsten Dominik
Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
Universiteit van Amsterdam
Kruislaan 403
NL-1098SJ Amsterdam
phone: +31 20 525 7477

Re: Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Carsten Dominik]

On Sep 12, 2006, at 16:27, Eddward DeVilla wrote:

>    I have found some performance issues with use very large tables
> (1000+ rows).

Yes, with 1000 lines in a table, the re-aligning become slow.
I would think I have optimized the tables as much as I can, in the
way that the automatic re-align is called as little as
possible, but maybe there is something that still can be done.

To help youself with performance issues in large tables, here
are a few tips you can try.

- Realign only by hand, when you want.  You can do this by setting
   the variable org-table-automatic-realign to nil.  After that
   you need to press C-c C-c in a table to align it, but for simple
   editing of data fields and moving from one field to another, there
   should then be no noticable delay.

- Split the table into several tables.  Just inserting an empty line
   every 100 lines should do the trick.

- Carsten

Re: Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Alex Bochannek]

chris <crassshed@gmail.com> writes:

> I hadn't considered concept maps, but see these could be very useful in the
> development stage of projects - thanks for the tip!  I'm not clear, though, how
> these would work in org-mode (without export to graphviz or similar).

I was actually suggestion using these two tools in the opposite order:
Start with a simple outline in Org-mode and then export to CmapTools,
for example.

I have been doing some more work with concept maps in the last week
and have to say that I am not so sure anymore who well Org-mode could
interface with them. The difficulty is the inherently non-linear
nature of concept maps that would be difficult to model in Org-mode
(see my comment about unique names in my email from last Sunday.)

Alex.

Re: Org-mode usage and concept mapping.

[Alex Bochannek]

Carsten,

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> However, the basic table support is a completely different story, and
> for me is an essential and critical feature of Org-mode.  Tables are
> the main reason why I use Org-mode as my default major mode in emacs - 
> fundamental and text mode I actually never use anymore, because I want
> to have the table support to easily write columns of date, arrange
> things nicely and quickly.

Which is why I wrote: 

> On Sep 11, 2006, at 5:51, Alex Bochannek wrote:
>> useful and I am sure Carsten implemented them for a reason, but with

;-)

Alex.