From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Jude DaShiell Subject: Re: would take more than an org-mode strip-down. Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: References: <92B42F15-B849-473D-9E4C-F513A5DD80E8@me.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32943) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R8qRS-0005km-VY for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:28:40 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R8qRR-0002Xn-2U for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:28:38 -0400 Received: from shellworld.net ([69.60.117.94]:64885 helo=server1.shellworld.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R8qRQ-0002Xb-SV for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:28:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: <92B42F15-B849-473D-9E4C-F513A5DD80E8@me.com> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: James Levine Cc: Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org They tried that MacDonalds approach on web pages all over the Government=20 and beyond and guess what, they found not even sighted people could=20 figure what to click or why. The Federal Government wasn't even looking=20 at this problem to help sighted people either, it's now addressing this=20 problem because of Section 508 requirements of the Americans With=20 Disabilities Act. But as my supervisor says, whenever web pages get=20 more accessible around here, it makes it easier for everybody. What I=20 write was reported on TV I think on C.N.N. technology column and a=20 researcher from M.I.T. also described it. I have no memory of vision at=20 all and for what I tried to do with org-mode I found very accessible and=20 I wouldn't have it any other way. Windows was made by people with=20 A.D.H.D. for people with A.D.H.D., and apparently org-mode was not. =20 What I would support is not a stripping down of org-mode or its=20 documentation but rather an A.D.H.D. link that will take A.D.H.D. people=20 onto a separate stripped down path which they get to create by=20 themselves in their own fashion. Text works every time and skimming=20 works sometimes. I'm sorry if this message hit a nerve but work I will=20 be doing for the next several years helping to locate all of the messes=20 A.D.H.D. has made for the Federal community so they can be straightened=20 out and put under revision control for the future will be using all of=20 my work time and I don't want to find out org-mod got trashed by the=20 A.D.H.D. philosophy in the meantime. eOn Tue, 27 Sep 2011, James Levine wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > As an expert end-user but outside the computer science field, I?ve felt= there to be a high cost of entry for working in org-mode. I like the ide= a very much, as I am trying to strip down to an Autofocus system and tak= e a more intuitive, frictionless approach. Because I?m not following the = play-by-play on the gnu boards, I thought I?d zoom out and tell you what = a consumer experience is like: >=20 > 1) It?s not that there isn?t enough documentation, it?s that there?s to= o much of it. > Imagine that setting up a wordpress database is probably too much for = the average person. You go to wordpress.org (and at this point you?d alre= ady need to read the fine print or you?d probably point to wordpress.com)= and the button simply tells you to download ?here?. Now what? >=20 > In other words, if you want to expand popularity among end-users, not = coders, there needs to be a middle ground: the visual step-by-step needs = to be uncluttered by additional description. Org-mode is further obscure= d by the fact that other services, a text editor and such need to be poin= ted to as well in the ?getting started process." I need to know why I?m b= eing forwarded to an external web page or why I need to read on between e= ach download link, or how to keep track of each link if each one is takin= g me to a separate page. You wouldn?t want someone telling you the histor= y of every landmark that you passed if they were giving you driving instr= uctions, would you? The verbose approach doesn?t actually help retention,= it floods it. The gnu support community, like this email, is very heavil= y text-based. >=20 > 2) Some things are just better with a gui. > I?m referring specifically to the more popularized use of tags or ?key= words.? Most all the file management clients fail at this somewhere. You = are requiring people to be literate, as in secondary school spelling-NOT = culture, not just in a single instance of clarity, but in a manner that c= an be consistently repeated, while you?re catering to an audience that pr= obably has a higher than average proportion of dyslexics, autistics, and = college drop-outs in its midst.=20 >=20 > Furthermore, tagging conventions are easy to break, and most End-Users = won?t know to instill them to begin with. ?Have I been using the plural o= f my common and collective nouns? What about that time I hashtagged a tas= k to myself in my email and I put the tag in the Subject heading? Did I s= pell it the same way my tags were set up back on my desktop?? It?s too ea= sy to orphan tags, spell them wrong, flip a p with a q. Without a pull up= , cash-register-like cheat sheet that lets you touch the tags that you al= ready made, one will leave a trail of junk mark-up. Not to mention, free = tagging does not endorse a constrained vocabulary as it would, say, if yo= u were trying to figure out what kind of lettuce someone was buying and y= ou worked the register. I?m also inclined to believe that crossing someth= ing out with my finger, or putting a check in a checkbox is more intuitiv= e and less prone to error than managing "[x]?s in a document. >=20 > 3) the 2nd problem ties in with this. Without a constrained tagging voc= abulary and other conventions, an org-mode task system is not that easy t= o subscribe to when trying to encourage a team to get on board. The list = is not inherently intuitive to all end-users. What is logic to one person= is not logic to the next. (This may come as a surprise to many coders). >=20 > 4) The master org-mode file will get lost in the shuffle. My litmus tes= t for a good file management system is ?if I?m sick or thankfully on a be= ach that day, can everyone else to whom my work pertains, understand for = themselves how to incorporate what they need from me?? Are my naming conv= entions clear? Are my directory structures clear? Can people find them on= their own, or are they going to call me while I?m trying to enjoy the be= ach? Can I effectively be a ?ghost in the machine? for my institution? Or= have I made people dependent upon me for the petty fact that my workflo= ws are not understood by anyone else?=20 >=20 > Again, feeding off point 3, org-mode does little to instill good file = management habits. I do appreciate that the plain text approach builds of= f simplicity rather than the adhered complexity of a database. Nonetheles= s, if I open up ?Things?, for example (I don?t use it myself), as an app = to keep my tasks, I know there?s a central repository for these stray lit= tle database entry ?tasks?. If I?m out of the office, I can tell whoever = is working on my assignments to open up ?Things,? or I can share this wit= h them. Because org-mode doesn?t reinforce where files are saved to or ho= w many files are accessed for my various projects, there?s plenty of wigg= le room for bad file management habits to come into play. Instead of tell= ing my colleague to open ?Things?, I need to tell them, "look in my docum= ents folder, open this file with this app. When you?re done with this by = 1p, I saved the task list for the catering event this evening in my dropb= ox. Look under documents, Jim?s stuff." You see where this is going.=20 >=20 > An org-mode text document is just too flimsy to stand alone in the sea = of files on a computer. That?s why evernote is successful-it?s a more ord= erly place for scraps. People used to muck up folders and drag stuff to t= heir desktop with the same caliber of content. If you held your desktop a= s sacred, or your Emacs platform, what then happens when these other ?tem= porary? odds and ends nonetheless compete with your focus?=20 >=20 > 5) I don?t subscribe to the notion that all ideas begin to take form th= rough an Outline. Outlines were something pounded into lots of heads as k= ids, and they work for some and not for others. To me, they are far too l= inear of an invention to trust with germinating ideas and projects. My ou= tline skills are epically good, but I still don?t find the outline as the= key tool for repurposing and leveraging divergent ideas (or for note-tak= ing for that matter). And again, with an awareness management system like= org-mode, how would you effectively create an Outline for Everything? Wo= uld that be any easier to navigate than the index card that I made just f= or today in my back pocket? Then to play the provocateur, if I can?t crea= te an Outline for Everything how many little baskets of Anythings do I w= ant to enforce in my life? Or should I just start with my work? (then wha= t happens to the rest of my life? Should I use refrigerator magnets?) Whe= re do I put these separate Outlines if I can?t look in the same place at = any time for them? How do they fit in with each other? The mobile impleme= ntation of org-mode thus far further confuses the matter-it places these = divergent files in a file browser. How does that actually help me work th= e system? What about a front end? >=20 > Perhaps some instruction on bridging the free-association, brain storm= ing, linear thinking, mind-mapping, UML, media files and inspiration, con= cepts directly into an Org-mode file would be of help. If I understood or= g-mode, I might even be the person to do it. Many ideas will never see a = formal outline first (even if the concept of an outline latently exists)-= only my software design documents or other specification sheets would sho= w through with such formality. >=20 > Please tell me if and where these points will be addressed, as their a = slim chance of my renavigating to the live thread where I found your emai= l (see point 1). Hope this message is in the right hands. I?m incredibly = grateful for this line of communication and for the work you are doing, a= nd I want to make this work. >=20 > James Levine-East Village, NYC >=20 Jude "I love the Pope, I love seeing him in his Pope-Mobile, his three feet of bullet proof plexi-glass. That's faith in action folks! You know he's got God on his side." ~ Bill Hicks