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* [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
@ 2021-02-05 10:34 Marco Wahl
  2021-02-05 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
  2021-04-28  4:17 ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Marco Wahl @ 2021-02-05 10:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Hi all!

What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.

The implementation could be just the line

    (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)

Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!

The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already just a
{C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in the
agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
e.g. help-mode.


Thanks for reading and best regards, 
-- 
Marco



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-02-05 10:34 [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help Marco Wahl
@ 2021-02-05 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
  2021-02-05 11:55   ` Marco Wahl
  2021-04-28  4:17 ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-02-05 10:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marco Wahl; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

>>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 11:34:41 +0100, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> said:

    Marco> Hi all!
    Marco> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
    Marco> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
    Marco> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.

    Marco> The implementation could be just the line

    Marco>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)

    Marco> Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!

Itʼs bound to 'org-agenda-holidays'

    Marco> The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already just a
    Marco> {C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in the
    Marco> agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
    Marco> e.g. help-mode.

Meh. People should learn. Bah humbug ;-)

Robert


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-02-05 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-02-05 11:55   ` Marco Wahl
  2021-02-05 19:48     ` Samuel Wales
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Marco Wahl @ 2021-02-05 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 11:34:41 +0100, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> said:
>
>     Marco> Hi all!
>     Marco> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
>     Marco> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
>     Marco> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.
>
>     Marco> The implementation could be just the line
>
>     Marco>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)
>
>     Marco> Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!
>
> Itʼs bound to 'org-agenda-holidays'

OMG!  How could I not see this?  Thanks!

>     Marco> The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already just a
>     Marco> {C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in the
>     Marco> agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
>     Marco> e.g. help-mode.
>
> Meh. People should learn. Bah humbug ;-)

:)

I just see that with the Org default org-agenda-holidays can be called
with either key h or key H.

What luxury for org-agenda-holidays is this?!

I recreate this suggestion and propose to sacrifice the current default
binding of h.  Let h open the quick help!


Ciao,
-- 
Marco


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-02-05 11:55   ` Marco Wahl
@ 2021-02-05 19:48     ` Samuel Wales
  2021-02-05 20:25       ` Marco Wahl
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2021-02-05 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marco Wahl; +Cc: Robert Pluim, emacs-orgmode

are there precedents?  calc?  h in dired does c-h m.

just a brainstorm but maybe c-h m and c-h b can be more friendly for all modes?


On 2/5/21, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 11:34:41 +0100, Marco Wahl
>>>>>>> <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>     Marco> Hi all!
>>     Marco> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode
>> in Org
>>     Marco> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing
>> the key
>>     Marco> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional
>> information.
>>
>>     Marco> The implementation could be just the line
>>
>>     Marco>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)
>>
>>     Marco> Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!
>>
>> Itʼs bound to 'org-agenda-holidays'
>
> OMG!  How could I not see this?  Thanks!
>
>>     Marco> The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already
>> just a
>>     Marco> {C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in
>> the
>>     Marco> agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
>>     Marco> e.g. help-mode.
>>
>> Meh. People should learn. Bah humbug ;-)
>
> :)
>
> I just see that with the Org default org-agenda-holidays can be called
> with either key h or key H.
>
> What luxury for org-agenda-holidays is this?!
>
> I recreate this suggestion and propose to sacrifice the current default
> binding of h.  Let h open the quick help!
>
>
> Ciao,
> --
> Marco
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

Please learn what misopathy is.
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-02-05 19:48     ` Samuel Wales
@ 2021-02-05 20:25       ` Marco Wahl
  2021-02-05 21:02         ` Samuel Wales
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Marco Wahl @ 2021-02-05 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: Robert Pluim, emacs-orgmode

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> are there precedents?  calc?  h in dired does c-h m.

Looks to me like calc shines brightest with its help system which btw
one enters with key h.

Up to now I see the precedents

- dired
- help-mode
- view-mode 
- Buffer-menu-mode

They all have h be the same as C-h m (describe-mode) AFAICS.

> just a brainstorm but maybe c-h m and c-h b can be more friendly for all modes?

I don't get this.  Would you like to elaborate, please?


Ciao,
-- Marco




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-02-05 20:25       ` Marco Wahl
@ 2021-02-05 21:02         ` Samuel Wales
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2021-02-05 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marco Wahl; +Cc: Robert Pluim, emacs-orgmode

i guess i was merely saying: instead of h, which a new user might not
try, something that works for everything in emacs might be a
possibility.  but c-h m and c-h b could perhaps be improved a bit and
include mode-specific text [details left to reader as exercise].


On 2/5/21, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> wrote:
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> are there precedents?  calc?  h in dired does c-h m.
>
> Looks to me like calc shines brightest with its help system which btw
> one enters with key h.
>
> Up to now I see the precedents
>
> - dired
> - help-mode
> - view-mode
> - Buffer-menu-mode
>
> They all have h be the same as C-h m (describe-mode) AFAICS.
>
>> just a brainstorm but maybe c-h m and c-h b can be more friendly for all
>> modes?
>
> I don't get this.  Would you like to elaborate, please?
>
>
> Ciao,
> -- Marco
>
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

Please learn what misopathy is.
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-02-05 10:34 [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help Marco Wahl
  2021-02-05 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-04-28  4:17 ` Bastien
  2021-04-28  4:59   ` Timothy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2021-04-28  4:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Marco Wahl; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Marco,

Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> writes:

> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.
>
> The implementation could be just the line
>
>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)

thanks for the proposal.  I'm not convinved that users who don't know
about `C-h m' will think of hitting `h' or another key.  I might be
wrong, so if beginners suggest they expect such a key and were amazed
at how useful C-h m was for them when reading this thread, I might
change my mind.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  4:17 ` Bastien
@ 2021-04-28  4:59   ` Timothy
  2021-04-28  5:06     ` Bastien
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2021-04-28  4:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> thanks for the proposal.  I'm not convinved that users who don't know
> about `C-h m' will think of hitting `h' or another key.  I might be
> wrong, so if beginners suggest they expect such a key and were amazed
> at how useful C-h m was for them when reading this thread, I might
> change my mind.

I can distinctly recall hitting "?" in Org agenda when I was getting
started, after getting used to Magit.

I actually think Org would benefit from using transient (which has
recently been merged into Emacs), and it could reduce the maintenance
burden, but I suppose that's not possible with our minimum version at
Emacs 24...

--
Timothy


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  4:59   ` Timothy
@ 2021-04-28  5:06     ` Bastien
  2021-04-28  5:36       ` Timothy
  2021-04-28 12:44     ` Greg Minshall
  2021-04-29 23:20     ` TRS-80
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2021-04-28  5:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> I actually think Org would benefit from using transient (which has
> recently been merged into Emacs), and it could reduce the maintenance
> burden, but I suppose that's not possible with our minimum version at
> Emacs 24...

I would welcome patches for moving Org to using transient.

Since this is a big effort, big then we will probably move to
supporting Emacs >= 25.1.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  5:06     ` Bastien
@ 2021-04-28  5:36       ` Timothy
  2021-04-28  5:52         ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2021-04-28  5:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I would welcome patches for moving Org to using transient.
>
> Since this is a big effort, big then we will probably move to
> supporting Emacs >= 25.1.

Great to hear! I think this would probably be developed as a branch like
wip-cite-new, and it would need transient to be installed (via ELPA?) on
Emacs <28, but I think it has the potential to both:
 - Improve the user experience, and
 - Remove Org's own home-cooked transient-ish interfaces,
   so leave us with less code to watch over

--
Timothy


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  5:36       ` Timothy
@ 2021-04-28  5:52         ` Bastien
  2021-04-28  6:08           ` Tim Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2021-04-28  5:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Great to hear! I think this would probably be developed as a branch like
> wip-cite-new

Yes.

> , and it would need transient to be installed (via ELPA?) on
> Emacs <28, but I think it has the potential to both:
>  - Improve the user experience, and
>  - Remove Org's own home-cooked transient-ish interfaces,
>    so leave us with less code to watch over

Yes, exactly.  Also there is plan to include Transient in Emacs core,
so this makes this move even more appealing:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-04/msg00944.html


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  5:52         ` Bastien
@ 2021-04-28  6:08           ` Tim Cross
  2021-04-29 23:15             ` TRS-80
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Tim Cross @ 2021-04-28  6:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Great to hear! I think this would probably be developed as a branch like
>> wip-cite-new
>
> Yes.
>
>> , and it would need transient to be installed (via ELPA?) on
>> Emacs <28, but I think it has the potential to both:
>>  - Improve the user experience, and
>>  - Remove Org's own home-cooked transient-ish interfaces,
>>    so leave us with less code to watch over
>
> Yes, exactly.  Also there is plan to include Transient in Emacs core,
> so this makes this move even more appealing:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-04/msg00944.html

I would also suggest that if we were going to have a 'help' key, rather
than describe mode, it might be better to link to the info manual (you
could just link to the agenda section of the manual).

I've rarely found describe mode to be terribly useful (there are
exceptions). However, I have used modes which have bound a help key to a
section in the info manual and I've found that much more useful. The
depth of information is usually better (what people looking for help
probably want) and once your in the info pages, moving to cross
references and other possibly relevant sections is very easy.

I also think adding transient mode would be beneficial in a number of
areas of org. In addition to reducing code maintenance, it would
increase consistency with other Emacs modes etc.


-- 
Tim Cross


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  4:59   ` Timothy
  2021-04-28  5:06     ` Bastien
@ 2021-04-28 12:44     ` Greg Minshall
  2021-04-28 13:31       ` Timothy
  2021-04-29 23:20     ` TRS-80
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Greg Minshall @ 2021-04-28 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: Bastien, Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode

Timothy,

> I actually think Org would benefit from using transient (which has
> recently been merged into Emacs), and it could reduce the maintenance
> burden, but I suppose that's not possible with our minimum version at
> Emacs 24...

having glanced briefly at transient, would it be something with which
one could, e.g., implement the export menu?

where else in org-mode would you see using it?

(just curiosity.)

cheers, Greg


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28 12:44     ` Greg Minshall
@ 2021-04-28 13:31       ` Timothy
  2021-04-28 14:12         ` Greg Minshall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2021-04-28 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Greg Minshall; +Cc: Bastien, Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode


Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu> writes:

> having glanced briefly at transient, would it be something with which
> one could, e.g., implement the export menu?
>
> where else in org-mode would you see using it?
>
> (just curiosity.)
>
> cheers, Greg

This is going to sound really generic, but I think it's a good model for
performing any action that takes options, and bundling related
functionality. The one exception would probably be capturing.

Off-hand, the export menu is the first thing that comes to mind which
would benefit.  If there's nothing else some patches would be better
than a branch, but it's now part of Emacs, so why not make use of it :)

I feel like other things would come up, but nothing leaps to mind.

--
Timothy


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28 13:31       ` Timothy
@ 2021-04-28 14:12         ` Greg Minshall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Greg Minshall @ 2021-04-28 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: Bastien, Marco Wahl, emacs-orgmode

Timothy,

thanks!

> Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu> writes:
> 
> > having glanced briefly at transient, would it be something with which
> > one could, e.g., implement the export menu?
> >
> > where else in org-mode would you see using it?
> >
> > (just curiosity.)
> >
> > cheers, Greg
> 
> This is going to sound really generic, but I think it's a good model for
> performing any action that takes options, and bundling related
> functionality. The one exception would probably be capturing.
> 
> Off-hand, the export menu is the first thing that comes to mind which
> would benefit.  If there's nothing else some patches would be better
> than a branch, but it's now part of Emacs, so why not make use of it :)
> 
> I feel like other things would come up, but nothing leaps to mind.
> 
> --
> Timothy
> 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  6:08           ` Tim Cross
@ 2021-04-29 23:15             ` TRS-80
  2021-04-29 23:18               ` Samuel Wales
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: TRS-80 @ 2021-04-29 23:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On 2021-04-28 02:08, Tim Cross wrote:
> I've rarely found describe mode to be terribly useful

I'm the opposite.  I find it a great way to quickly look up (or search
for) some keybinding or function I forgot.

But then again, I know the difference between C-h m and C-h i (as well
as other help options) so if I need the manual (or other information)
I go straight there.  They each have their place, IMO.

Cheers,
TRS-80


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-29 23:15             ` TRS-80
@ 2021-04-29 23:18               ` Samuel Wales
  2021-04-30  0:37                 ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2021-04-29 23:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TRS-80; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

links to the info manual from help pages and vice-versa would be keen.

On 4/29/21, TRS-80 <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name> wrote:
> On 2021-04-28 02:08, Tim Cross wrote:
>> I've rarely found describe mode to be terribly useful
>
> I'm the opposite.  I find it a great way to quickly look up (or search
> for) some keybinding or function I forgot.
>
> But then again, I know the difference between C-h m and C-h i (as well
> as other help options) so if I need the manual (or other information)
> I go straight there.  They each have their place, IMO.
>
> Cheers,
> TRS-80
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

Please learn what misopathy is.
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-28  4:59   ` Timothy
  2021-04-28  5:06     ` Bastien
  2021-04-28 12:44     ` Greg Minshall
@ 2021-04-29 23:20     ` TRS-80
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: TRS-80 @ 2021-04-29 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On 2021-04-28 00:59, Timothy wrote:
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>> thanks for the proposal.  I'm not convinved that users who don't know
>> about `C-h m' will think of hitting `h' or another key.  I might be
>> wrong, so if beginners suggest they expect such a key and were amazed
>> at how useful C-h m was for them when reading this thread, I might
>> change my mind.
> 
> I can distinctly recall hitting "?" in Org agenda when I was getting
> started, after getting used to Magit.

For some reason, "?" is the single key that comes to my mind as well
(rather than "h" or any other).  I don't know if I got that from
Magit, general GNU/Linux usage, or what?

Having said that, I am not arguing in favor of OPs proposal.  Just
mentioning the "single key" that came to mind, FWIW.  As I mentioned
in another reply, I think things are fine the way they are.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers,
TRS-80


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help
  2021-04-29 23:18               ` Samuel Wales
@ 2021-04-30  0:37                 ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-04-30  0:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> links to the info manual from help pages and vice-versa would be keen.

See helpful [1] package. It provides links from help buffers to manual.
For links from manual, there is always <F1> v/f/.

[1] https://github.com/Wilfred/helpful

Best,
Ihor



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-04-30  0:33 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-02-05 10:34 [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help Marco Wahl
2021-02-05 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
2021-02-05 11:55   ` Marco Wahl
2021-02-05 19:48     ` Samuel Wales
2021-02-05 20:25       ` Marco Wahl
2021-02-05 21:02         ` Samuel Wales
2021-04-28  4:17 ` Bastien
2021-04-28  4:59   ` Timothy
2021-04-28  5:06     ` Bastien
2021-04-28  5:36       ` Timothy
2021-04-28  5:52         ` Bastien
2021-04-28  6:08           ` Tim Cross
2021-04-29 23:15             ` TRS-80
2021-04-29 23:18               ` Samuel Wales
2021-04-30  0:37                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-04-28 12:44     ` Greg Minshall
2021-04-28 13:31       ` Timothy
2021-04-28 14:12         ` Greg Minshall
2021-04-29 23:20     ` TRS-80

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