From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id oOjBABvcvGEqkQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:51:07 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id uKj4NxrcvGHOGAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 18:51:06 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92F67173CD for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:51:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33038 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1myIJt-0003QH-Nq for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:51:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48144) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1myIFR-0000tl-Cy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:46:29 -0500 Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:35386) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1myIFO-0006E8-AZ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:46:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:Cc:To:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=s6uA9pIjmZ3i5rk/8ksa6mLXam0tIjNrrVb8CWP2szA=; b=Tlq6XQojyGUT/dqXrIgApfjv6C O0N1CcBAq179e/ck8QFVE8VHL9hbCHnjdPiE2g/DEX7187iApA5AJuNQeBUWbKiW2V7Gw0HXypZA9 hPv8v8tKVy0o+WaVKArusN6KOg7QkNEgRMWGjArGU0Eg1Nv2xzycbjwlc/5S3SU5IRlSOc0cJUg1e EADL6G2JIauOLMV2Vmf8mrd4kNzufmMOyGjI+QzqnJjzU6kSapzA2t+DBie4xrGfZp4lsA2ImFWe2 +PIIfcS3sPwwVLJEfH8f3ujLTOQOAHYb346tw+Uw36k12HjM6+kSaql4OEd0ScM48IPsSFx07oGOg XIfQr8dA==; Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1myIFK-0004Hu-BN; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:46:22 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:46:22 +0100 To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: format/fill of text in a cell in tables Message-ID: References: <874k78evcr.fsf@localhost> <87mtl0b1u2.fsf@gmail.com> <87ilvnbdkp.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xvIIASeWA7/4MCmF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87ilvnbdkp.fsf@gmail.com> From: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1639767066; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=s6uA9pIjmZ3i5rk/8ksa6mLXam0tIjNrrVb8CWP2szA=; b=lt9COeBO3OkM2lucOGmSr7kOa++IWM/MMfWzljykY16EWQwf1Ja9BYUBPDqhM+MYVgXrhT 7WOWukHqdtq3tCEMGQ6VZjDklmIqVS/eZtGVsLZvDW/v2XJQIa4l2JlLneRq0GrNpb8eNu PPGz4TVLHZHaTHqLLJLSvHqwfUJq5TRBSI2J1xL5JyOE737SD4jEGZhO+h+X2jdu31jR9B 8BoGSbBHW/7haAmihI2X9hyBUwEZFbn+ZVWTAAdYl/dHws6gP48MaSeUQbgTKt6Xj+yiYy ysoK1CNSgCkPZmOKqSeCYj7TabmmO8Ryxxj/zKlFX+6zVD4ectTFGdXhLtbGkA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1639767066; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=SgnAYAj5jAy31/InLGo9pg49FKdKNC5kyWxS3Q3+/n+hfB9PGZcSc6pVd1K8nZc+BvFZUv urXgyEORWudcsb2ANd4K63H3NRmCKpg/t3izS/C5Mx6bEZhl5ytAMGJOGtZkUc2zeU8jIQ ++789SgqKU5OYdS/poQe7QQnzzh7vqb+zVWsdm/ElsHWiUcwU6OZq0rg75eRN9XAaAGEi6 Ry6eBqbIzM16NdSjebJ3fDh6hKmKW64oIPTUuC6KX4fPk9QLJx9aUYeXslvlR5oxucbjnw njJWwoR3HuLfJuiAXc0MnM8Vaph3O8QVbamWH5RzH0grIysZ/z1nrCzzzs0LcA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tuxteam.de header.s=mail header.b=Tlq6XQoj; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.40 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tuxteam.de header.s=mail header.b=Tlq6XQoj; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 92F67173CD X-Spam-Score: -4.40 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: GbM4E3gomxEW --xvIIASeWA7/4MCmF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 11:11:47PM +1100, Tim Cross wrote: [...] > Yes, sometimes tables are extremely useful - especially wrt 2-d > relationships I'm not against the use of tables, but do find their use > as a formatting/layout tool limited [...] Yes, but at the end, layout is but a thinking device as all the others are :-) This reminds me of people advocating "semantic backup" (e.g. use "emphasis" instead of "italics", until one realises that you just managed to peel off one layer of the sematic onion. The onion just got smaller (some literature perhaps might want to play with the ambiguity of italics?), and if you continue, you end up with no onion at all. > Many years ago, I worked on a system which used an interesting interface > which used 'cubes' to represent database information [...] Sounds a bit awkward, at the same time. I guess the gains to be had from going from 1D to 2D are significantly higher than those beyond (OTOH, beyond 5 or 6, things get strange again, with most of the volume of things getting stuck in thin shells). > I have been legally blind my whole life and for 17 years [...] > [...] I'm sort of between worlds - enough sight to prevent me really > developing 'sightless'skills Thanks for sharing your experience. That's the only way others can learn. > I know a few totally blind mathematicians and their skills are > impressive. Quite a few of them have ended up working in fields relating > to topology [...] This is interesting. I always was wondering how different person's strategies in this situation have anything in common and how they vary wildly. > > * WYS ain't WYG [...] > Yes, I can see why people like WYSWYG when editing. However, my > experience with such systems as more often than not been extremely > frustrating as I seem to end up constantly fighting with the system to > get it looking right rather than focusing on the content [...] There is a lot of potential in being "between the worlds", and Org tries to exploit exactly that. But that's, I think, also where its conflicts are. You can see similar patterns in other fields. Serialization formats which deliver abstract and concrete syntax in "one package" (S-expressions, XML (and those others), JSON) tend to be wildly successful, but tend to run into the same troubles time and again; trying to do the right thing and separating abstract and concrete syntax (think ASN.1) tend to end up in niches (OK, ASN.1 is actually successful, but only because people get paid to do that :-) Cheers --=20 t --xvIIASeWA7/4MCmF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EABECAB0WIQRp53liolZD6iXhAoIFyCz1etHaRgUCYbza9wAKCRAFyCz1etHa Rm+sAJ9N6z7Co1mqBa7dRL39fCVNYwzK0gCfWHK2b1iWjicOZ8YkUz8L9lXbZww= =V63g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xvIIASeWA7/4MCmF--