From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id UCKNKBlarmGHDwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 19:44:41 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 8H4wJBlarmE9LAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 18:44:41 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 588C9A505 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:44:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:60856 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIyd-0004Mw-F8 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:44:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37072) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIxM-0004LP-Hv for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:43:21 -0500 Received: from [2a00:f10:305:0:1c00:d8ff:fe00:461] (port=54552 helo=se08.route25.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIxI-0007Lg-U1 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:43:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:42:46 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87pmqasws7.fsf@posteo.net> <878rwyi8bt.fsf@posteo.net> <87r1aqnu3q.fsf@gmail.com> <8735n6i4br.fsf@posteo.net> <796107.1638785063@apollo2.minshall.org> <87tufl6apx.fsf@posteo.net> <87bl1td20x.fsf@atlantis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87bl1td20x.fsf@atlantis> X-Originating-IP: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2nvY+vdz+64+GV9/gKY5FKLN/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVylI3hUR174TAU8LiLVUzcV3Hh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxm6GtiR/ZS57IrkuRfCYlnnsztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DJ8yTUE5ABY7lZUQaTevIGGY PGPCpwadnh0Ok6RyTHqHR7Q7mTh+cQ+x1sC8g6nVQQeYUOp7A73HI6oJg7w/Voco9SNrpkHmnjKv WmkEKauoX0vbOV1GC4tWSdMEfX0qZk++GRKi3fJfRTPr/PuJHE2qLKGw14XJ1HVJ6YVjGtSJdxGq bFPaf63IwETnO6Zd46h5zSeZzEuyYTr3SRs32TLLNY5m6QFuqDYzTDQPuRpHZuM7jUXIESohoO51 xWmU8Xl02Dg0JhzVW+RNBfBsjtQAqRvbnJ7uz7ZwKR0kCJL7YeKFIoZNCEtidK7IlrsGUje9OGGV yYzQv/loOwu0bmsL/wzCdtFGkMNi6UfW3mVmwk3xC0YEqah8H9zG7AE/EhqZfqbUZNOrBWY03CEu +85tl6nIiSdD++5RdEBEl+IPHAXz/6s5FV11bC5ISFJqlg03a6SLNhJ6Q12/4jZa7jE= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:f10:305:0:1c00:d8ff:fe00:461 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:f10:305:0:1c00:d8ff:fe00:461; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se08.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638816281; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=oY1SL4ffbKgSRPhDsWtCqliizzuud4gegGIlSQXuf4Q=; b=qowXJKsupH1trBDGRA27eSXpzZYYZZ/OVtxioPJBIFXGDp21lEKomJbi2i4oDClQnKibHh xvNc3SazzJEGUpATerw9c+nef6MK2oGptouxNgvjX3wzOA6fi+lcbTjWJBkvh62HVqG1RV 8Y17Vwir7AG0M+CcYWdRHt46npGzuhCtzj2qI/tGInpElDLRLTjx9vdo+5Q+GGGF5yqL4C ON2BmfMzHHfoV7DafFbGNNefSQ0ki+/eOfRTPFzTyTU/pbRbEvI+AQUVBV369O3Z18EsMX /tvgOrI8TT9j37hPjA/RfN+BvX/ErSDaawDoU+U4M5wLiKSk91/61hqQ7NHlLw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638816281; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CS2O+wq052R1y7NNbN6MFhHBOH00LpYa0zA8vsYgE7swB65BmW54FiZIGTa4M8txBvUKSD wRQPiTHt7HOc4TNfO2gEi309gq5rxv1Uwpn+lwGXf2559iR70fqHgv4mw36Dxz4w5ohMm0 PkVOgtw7YrZUzuFSo9091k3sAYTKBFtHNqBcBVEmoRc4U1y3Dcq6Jhu5vYuhpRK7LnzYzx jfTXKQDUwavMQS26inLJVYlJnBOVCIzjglDNOoSfZdN4rKuCk92jUSccQj/KlNKkg0j5iE k0cOOHOp9gxJgSO6EQ/z1ZdanYuUNkC7bqyoD00WQglrb5DA2eQ96oGApmxGSQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 588C9A505 X-Spam-Score: -2.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 0dzUjss0f8nt On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 07:25:02PM +0100, M. ‘quintus’ Gülker wrote: > > We started with an interoperability topic and now we are discussing > whether the intent is to take away software freedom from Emacs org > users. I cannot help but to find this connection far-fetched. Nobody > is suggesting to hamper org-mode-in-emacs' further development. All > that was asked was if there is interest in someone outside of > org-mode-in-emacs writing up “compatibility levels” for the org > markup. These kind of issues snowball because we are also indirectly asking for our coders and maintainers to consider those external tools while continuing to support Org. How many syntax documents are we supposed to maintain outside of the working implementation in Emacs and the manual? The topic of software freedom comes up because by definition, other tools are outside of Emacs and may be non-free. It's important to consider, but isn't a reason to not discuss features. The key is our volunteers should not be required to code features for non-free tools outside of Emacs. An implied support requirement to preserve interoperability with external tools is a large commitment, and could also run into the non-free software issue. Expect people to have strong opinions about these matters. > ... not be banned from discussion on this mailing list. I don't think banning topics is appropriate. I think we were reminded that this is an Emacs list and FSF software ethics apply. Any official stance Org maintainers take would have to be in line with that moral code. Discussions are often fruitful for all involved and shouldn't be a problem when conducted in a respectful manner. Expect critical opinions at times, but we should keep it civil. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3