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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1618872096; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=qnKaNtSE0YlIIlRZP8KmGBjqT7piRRkun/k+9sdFi24=; b=tVp2QWK8QMItknwntFJi1YIWGNBO7uX56EFw2lK4jM+rKjn26IryKsPWPC/uQVBadPl3qw cr6HreEVp3qGKKmlgNCcvVe5LW9o9NMqdRH0ATwgRy34fDJ8kbtV8xrAQ0xv+1EomC1PYS yc3ZaKpUn0/QNyI57OZh7vbMe/RL1igALDvwZxv1P++ITf6dqiYAWduFSwVht1XqTGJZV/ O5sCMHmRWEsepOMW+t9nPm2uBvMfN+28aQQAqbddSSVYTO34+oWPQ6EYkE6GocLmjsWfKD xT/CVqAjPvn7+E1x0mV/+fv2A2Kgpr5wS8+FNQ/baIs43TcRK6+VLz/uc0ZWmg== ARC-Seal: i=2; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1618872096; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; b=ANSukUTfXUycHLTXVatd8OUzKY3lL5pXt3ApFQmtE61cDm9Bpi2rossZiiIkDKMaV2PH5P 2HeIL9YxJRCvkOh4j8QRnpuK2uRoRHjqhE8yTMh4xm3hE8vo+utelYmaSaaAu68D+pPDpr sFifc26C0N7x6vTVd25PQQA3N7ma/kcO34TD0xqr5YDiMIKDtDtHckEkC1SSFuM9cQ1afr viAhbwpqkLeFRtjs+9J0CB05ww5odT5Z+FonPnFaG3E4ZD3KRedvgk/vu4wVlwkhHWIyKp MW88Cpt04/6SmQ6gxeXLIqGO5qZCDAGUXUgGzHE0QhHNT/JTVdQdJz1XAdycVg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=Wikstrom.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-Wikstrom-onmicrosoft-com header.b=m0Clh7SZ; arc=pass ("microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1"); dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.64 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=Wikstrom.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-Wikstrom-onmicrosoft-com header.b=m0Clh7SZ; arc=pass ("microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1"); dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 55D7F10C36 X-Spam-Score: -3.64 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: bqp4GdDFVYq3 Hi Tim,=0A= =0A= Another data point from me. I agree with your concerns, although they are d= ifficult to solve! Since we're talking about voluntary work and non-paid wo= rk. And maintenance can take a lot of time and effort.=0A= =0A= This is not the first time this topic comes up on the list. Both you and me= took part of the discussion after the 9.4.2 release, that hinted at simila= r topics [1]. And since Bastien has been in the process of handing over the= maintenance role to someone else for quite some time now, it's not strange= that the issue will continue to resurface until that process is done.=0A= =0A= What I take away from this thread is mainly one thing: Another hand raised,= eager to take on community work! Since you mentioned that you're intereste= d. The more the merrier! Open source is tough though. It's very much a meri= tocracy. But by doing stuff that is considered to be good, and good stuff w= ill come back to you.=0A= =0A= Org mode isn't "finished". And I for one hope the community can continue to= surprise with new, nice functionality. Even though some are perfectly happ= y where it is right now. In my world this is dual property of stability and= extensibility is enabled by refactoring into a stable, small(er), less ent= angled and functional core while also encouraging extension packages/modes.= Like org-roam and the likes.=0A= =0A= A suggestion from me, fwiw, and if you're serious about getting more involv= ed in the community, is to see if Bastien has some time to discuss this mai= ntenance transition, and to see if there is anywhere where you can fit into= that picture. But start small. ;)=0A= =0A= I'm very interested in hearing more on how the thoughts are going in that d= epartment - and if there are others who have similar thoughts as you in ter= ms of maybe putting more time into the project. But maybe don't see how hel= p out, and with what.=0A= =0A= Personally I'm also still hoping for "Org mode maintainer/advocate/whatever= " to be something that someone out there can be occupied full time with. Th= e value of the ideas and the software surely is there to warrant it. The qu= estion is only how to make it interesting enough for people to help out wit= h funding!=0A= =0A= [1]: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2020-12/msg00511.html= =0A= =0A= Best,=0A= Gustav=0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: Emacs-orgmode on beh= alf of Timothy =0A= Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 20:43=0A= To: org-mode-email=0A= Subject: Concerns about community contributor support=0A= =0A= Dear all,=0A= =0A= Over the last few months I have felt an increasing level of concern over=0A= the lack of response to patches. This email is rather long, but please,=0A= bear with me. The goal is to start a discussion on the problems this=0A= creates, and consider short and long-term solutions.=0A= =0A= When both community and maintainer response to new patches is lacking,=0A= many first-time contributors are actively dissuaded from contributing=0A= again. Furthermore, each patch represents a considerable time investment=0A= --- particularly if it's from an individual who is new to the mailing=0A= list / patch workflow. Org-mode is not "done" and still requires the=0A= support of long-term contributors to keep improving, anything that=0A= discourages them from contributing back to the community needs to be=0A= carefully understood and resolved if we want to continue harmoniously.=0A= =0A= Take for example Jay Bosamiya's patch from September last year [1]. It=0A= appears to be his first submission to this mailing list, and yet there=0A= has been absolutely no response to it. There are currently 24 other=0A= patches listed on the updates.orgmode.org which have seen no response=0A= from this community, some of which are from first-time contributors.=0A= There are 36 other patches with at least two replies, but yet to be=0A= resolved. Bastien's updates.orgmode.org is fantastic in helping prevent=0A= contributions slip through the cracks, but it is also highlighting the=0A= lack of community response to a significant number of patches.=0A= =0A= This mailing list was my first experience with an email+patch based=0A= contribution workflow. Thankfully, I received prompt and friendly=0A= feedback and was guided through the adjustments needed so it could be=0A= merged in a timely manner. Should my patch have been similarly ignored,=0A= I would have been quite disheartened; it is not an overstatement to say=0A= I would likely have written off this mailing list and not tried again.=0A= =0A= Simply put, this is not good enough. This does a disservice to those=0A= that have dedicated time and effort to try and better this project only=0A= to be ignored. Not rejected, not even acknowledged, nothing.=0A= =0A= It is imperative that this community improves our response to=0A= contributions for the long-term health of this project. Do not take me=0A= to be a doomsayer; I have faith that Org is going to keep on improving=0A= regardless. However, failing to welcome and encourage contributors has a=0A= deleterious effect on the health of the project.=0A= =0A= I do not blame the maintainers in the slightest. As Bastien brought up=0A= in a recent worg discussion, as time goes on we find ourselves taking on=0A= more and more life responsibilities. Therefore it's in our best interest=0A= to delegate some of the maintainer responsibilities to consistently=0A= active, and supportive community members to "pass down the torch" so the=0A= community and platform can continue to expand with grace and care.=0A= =0A= What can the community do?=0A= =0A= I don't know of any silver bullet, but I believe there are some steps=0A= which could help, namely:=0A= + The development and publication of "reasonable expectations" which=0A= contributors should have when submitting a patch, and that the=0A= maintainers should strive to uphold (e.g. "expect a response within=0A= ").=0A= + A community effort/sprint to respond to those patches that have been=0A= seemingly abandoned=0A= + Onboarding of new maintainers, when reasonable and suitable candidates=0A= exist (I'd very willingly throw my hat in the ring for consideration).=0A= If it's too much work, spread it out as much as possible.=0A= =0A= If any other ideas come to mind, please share them so we can discuss=0A= them further.=0A= =0A= Finally, it's not all bad.=0A= =0A= While this discussion has called for some criticism, I don't want to=0A= give the false impression that I think nothing is working and nobody is=0A= supporting contributors. This is not the case at all, there are some=0A= standout individuals one the mailing list who have been fantastic. Kudos=0A= to you all.=0A= =0A= My best to everyone,=0A= =0A= Timothy=0A= =0A= [1] https://orgmode.org/list/CAOywxZg1cBL07THLZXHBBCzm6te2vMtqnmM0w63331gyb= rjZuw@mail.gmail.com/=0A= [2] https://orgmode.org/list/87h7qi2l2m.fsf@gmail.com/=0A= =0A=