* list indentation
@ 2008-02-07 18:58 cezar
2008-02-07 23:31 ` Hugo Schmitt
2008-02-08 9:24 ` Carsten Dominik
0 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: cezar @ 2008-02-07 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
Hello,
I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some
details on a task like:
** TODO something to be done
notes about this task
come here and they include a list
- blah
- blah
And another list
- foo
- foo
And one more list
- bar
- bar
Now, this is not what it should look like !
The lists need to be aligned properly.
Am I making any sense ?
Regards,
Cezar
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: list indentation 2008-02-07 18:58 list indentation cezar @ 2008-02-07 23:31 ` Hugo Schmitt 2008-02-08 9:24 ` Carsten Dominik 1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Hugo Schmitt @ 2008-02-07 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1161 bytes --] Hi. The problem with your example, afaik, is that 'And another list' is just the rest of the text that starts at the last 'blah'. Shouldn't 'And another list' be a header? Maybe you want something like this? ** TODO something to be done notes about this task come here and they include a list - blah - blah *** and another list - foo - foo *** And one more list - bar - bar HTH, Hugo On Feb 7, 2008 4:58 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: > Hello, > > I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some > details on a task like: > > ** TODO something to be done > notes about this task > come here and they include a list > - blah > - blah > And another list > - foo > - foo > And one more list > - bar > - bar > > Now, this is not what it should look like ! > The lists need to be aligned properly. > > Am I making any sense ? > > Regards, > Cezar > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1854 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --] _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-07 18:58 list indentation cezar 2008-02-07 23:31 ` Hugo Schmitt @ 2008-02-08 9:24 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-09 0:29 ` cezar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-08 9:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote: > Hello, > > I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some > details on a task like: > > ** TODO something to be done > notes about this task > come here and they include a list > - blah > - blah > And another list > - foo > - foo > And one more list > - bar > - bar > > Now, this is not what it should look like ! > The lists need to be aligned properly. Hi Cezar, Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it. However, it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your lists to be structured. This structure you show is valid and might just as well be what you mean. However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you probably did is (I am guessing here): - type "And another list" - press RET to get a new line - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue text as *part* of he current item. - type "-" to make a new item - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented to match your intended structure. Bummer. Org keeps the structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this is what you mean. What you could have done - type "And another list" - press RET to get a new line - type "-" to make a new item - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-" with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you told it that you intended it to be an item in time. What you really should have done - type "And another list" - M-RET to create the next item. Hope this helps - Carsten > > > Am I making any sense ? > > Regards, > Cezar > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-08 9:24 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-09 0:29 ` cezar 2008-02-09 7:17 ` Carsten Dominik 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: cezar @ 2008-02-09 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:39 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote: > On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some >> details on a task like: >> >> ** TODO something to be done >> notes about this task >> come here and they include a list >> - blah >> - blah >> And another list >> - foo >> - foo >> And one more list >> - bar >> - bar >> >> Now, this is not what it should look like ! The lists need to be >> aligned properly. > > > Hi Cezar, > > Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it. However, > it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your > lists to be structured. This structure you show is valid and might just > as well be what you mean. > > However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you > probably did is (I am guessing here): > > - type "And another list" > - press RET to get a new line > - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue > text as *part* of he current item. > - type "-" to make a new item > - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented > to match your intended structure. Bummer. Org keeps the > structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this is > what you mean. > > What you could have done > - type "And another list" > - press RET to get a new line > - type "-" to make a new item > - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-" > with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you > told it that you intended it to be an item in time. > > What you really should have done > - type "And another list" > - M-RET to create the next item. > > Hope this helps > > - Carsten > > > > > >> >> Am I making any sense ? >> >> Regards, >> Cezar >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing >> list >> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > > > _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing > list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode My problem is that "Another list" is indented (because it's under a list element row). So what I'd want is org-mode to know that/when the list ends which is at the end of the line (maybe use a dot) Thank you for explaining. Cezar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 0:29 ` cezar @ 2008-02-09 7:17 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-09 7:26 ` cezar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-09 7:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode I don't quite understand yet what you mean. Please try to explain again. - Carsten On Feb 9, 2008, at 1:29 AM, cezar wrote: > On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:39 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote: > >> On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some >>> details on a task like: >>> >>> ** TODO something to be done >>> notes about this task >>> come here and they include a list >>> - blah >>> - blah >>> And another list >>> - foo >>> - foo >>> And one more list >>> - bar >>> - bar >>> >>> Now, this is not what it should look like ! The lists need to be >>> aligned properly. >> >> >> Hi Cezar, >> >> Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it. >> However, >> it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your >> lists to be structured. This structure you show is valid and might >> just >> as well be what you mean. >> >> However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you >> probably did is (I am guessing here): >> >> - type "And another list" >> - press RET to get a new line >> - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue >> text as *part* of he current item. >> - type "-" to make a new item >> - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented >> to match your intended structure. Bummer. Org keeps the >> structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this >> is >> what you mean. >> >> What you could have done >> - type "And another list" >> - press RET to get a new line >> - type "-" to make a new item >> - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-" >> with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you >> told it that you intended it to be an item in time. >> >> What you really should have done >> - type "And another list" >> - M-RET to create the next item. >> >> Hope this helps >> >> - Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Am I making any sense ? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Cezar >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode >>> mailing >>> list >>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing >> list >> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > My problem is that "Another list" is indented (because it's under a > list > element row). So what I'd want is org-mode to know that/when the list > ends which is at the end of the line (maybe use a dot) > > Thank you for explaining. > > Cezar > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 7:17 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-09 7:26 ` cezar 2008-02-09 17:02 ` Eddward DeVilla 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: cezar @ 2008-02-09 7:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:17:10 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote: > I don't quite understand yet what you mean. Please try to explain > again. > > - Carsten > > On Feb 9, 2008, at 1:29 AM, cezar wrote: > >> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:39 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote: >> >>> On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, cezar wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I am using org-mode version 5.17a and I sometimes need to write some >>>> details on a task like: >>>> >>>> ** TODO something to be done >>>> notes about this task >>>> come here and they include a list >>>> - blah >>>> - blah >>>> And another list >>>> - foo >>>> - foo >>>> And one more list >>>> - bar >>>> - bar >>>> >>>> Now, this is not what it should look like ! The lists need to be >>>> aligned properly. >>> >>> >>> Hi Cezar, >>> >>> Org-mode tries its best to guess what you mean and then do it. >>> However, >>> it is not a true mind reader, and it cannot know how you intend your >>> lists to be structured. This structure you show is valid and might >>> just >>> as well be what you mean. >>> >>> However, Org-mode helps you to create the lists either way. What you >>> probably did is (I am guessing here): >>> >>> - type "And another list" >>> - press RET to get a new line >>> - press TAB to indent, Org assumes that you want to continue >>> text as *part* of he current item. >>> - type "-" to make a new item >>> - press TAB in the hope that the line would be outdented >>> to match your intended structure. Bummer. Org keeps the >>> structure because it assumes by setting the indentation, this >>> is >>> what you mean. >>> >>> What you could have done >>> - type "And another list" >>> - press RET to get a new line >>> - type "-" to make a new item >>> - press TAB to indent, now org-mode matches up the "-" >>> with the previous ones, because before indenting the line you >>> told it that you intended it to be an item in time. >>> >>> What you really should have done >>> - type "And another list" >>> - M-RET to create the next item. >>> >>> Hope this helps >>> >>> - Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am I making any sense ? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Cezar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing >>>> list >>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing >>> list >>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> >> My problem is that "Another list" is indented (because it's under a >> list >> element row). So what I'd want is org-mode to know that/when the list >> ends which is at the end of the line (maybe use a dot) >> >> Thank you for explaining. >> >> Cezar >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing >> list >> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > > > _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing > list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode I have this TODO: ** TODO Meeting with John Doe regarding the job interview some skills they would like - html - css - unix address: 102 str. Blah foo, CA phone: 1111111 I would like to somehow make org aware that the list ends after "- unix" and that what follows are not part of the list, meaning pressing TAB should not move the cursor under "u" form unix. Regards, Cezar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 7:26 ` cezar @ 2008-02-09 17:02 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-09 21:45 ` William Henney 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-09 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On Feb 9, 2008 1:26 AM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: > I have this TODO: > > ** TODO Meeting with John Doe > regarding the job interview > some skills they would like > - html > - css > - unix > address: 102 str. Blah foo, CA > phone: 1111111 > > I would like to somehow make org aware that the list ends after "- unix" > and that what follows are not part of the list, meaning pressing TAB > should not move the cursor under "u" form unix. This is a tough one. Sometimes I want the behavior you describe. Sometimes I want the behavior org-mode has. For me it's not so must the that I care about tab indenting right. Org can't be a mind reader. It's that it may undo your indent if you if you do M-q and org disagrees with you. Maybe if there was a way to delimit the list like: * this is the stuff It all happens here: ----- - lock - stock - and barrel ----- It's done now. I choose the 5 -'s because it matches with the horizontal bar, just indented. (btw, could org-mode maybe take a line with 5 -'s and extend it to the width of the window when displaying in the buffer? Just an idea I'd use but don't really need.) I don't know if it's the right thing, and I'm guessing it may not be possible anyhow (with out a lot of work). Also I don't know what the correct behavior should be for: * Slapstick ----- - Stooges ----- - Moe - Larry - Curly - Shemp - Joe ----- - Marx ----- - Groucho - Harpo - Chico - Gummo - Zeppo ----- ----- I know what I'd like, but I don't know if it's practical. Another possibility is to do like rst and require a blank line when ending a list entry. Again, I'm not sure that is reasonably workable in org-mode. Edd ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 17:02 ` Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-09 21:45 ` William Henney 2008-02-09 22:17 ` cezar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: William Henney @ 2008-02-09 21:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eddward DeVilla; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, cezar [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1465 bytes --] Hi Eddward On Feb 9, 2008 11:02 AM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: > I know what I'd like, but I don't know if it's practical. Another > possibility is to do like rst and require a blank line when ending a > list entry. Again, I'm not sure that is reasonably workable in > org-mode. > But that would mean that org would have to disallow multiple paragraphs in one list item, which is currently allowed. I think the only way to get what you want is to have distinct markers for starting and ending the lists. Something like **** Proposal for a more explicit list syntax An attempt to provide more robust indentation for lists with follow-on text. /- - Here is a list item - Here is another item. This item has multiple paras. - And a third item /+ + With an embedded sub-list + Second sub-item +/ Final part of third item -/ And here the lists have ended, so indentation returns to normal. One thing I'm not too happy about with this proposal is that the - in the start list marker (/-) does not line up with the other -'s. An alternative could be something like -\ - one - two -/ or (if unicode is allowed) even -↓ - one - two -↑ What do people think? The interaction with org-outdent-item would be tricky. Cheers Will -- Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --] _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 21:45 ` William Henney @ 2008-02-09 22:17 ` cezar 2008-02-09 22:50 ` William Henney 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: cezar @ 2008-02-09 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:45:53 -0600, William Henney wrote: > Hi Eddward > > On Feb 9, 2008 11:02 AM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: >> I know what I'd like, but I don't know if it's practical. Another >> possibility is to do like rst and require a blank line when ending a >> list entry. Again, I'm not sure that is reasonably workable in >> org-mode. >> >> > But that would mean that org would have to disallow multiple paragraphs > in one list item, which is currently allowed. > > I think the only way to get what you want is to have distinct markers > for starting and ending the lists. Something like > > **** Proposal for a more explicit list syntax > An attempt to provide more robust indentation for lists with > follow-on text. > /- > - Here is a list item > - Here is another item. > > This item has multiple paras. > - And a third item > /+ > + With an embedded sub-list > + Second sub-item > +/ > Final part of third item > -/ > And here the lists have ended, so indentation returns to normal. > > > One thing I'm not too happy about with this proposal is that the - in > the start list marker (/-) does not line up with the other -'s. An > alternative could be something like > > -\ > - one > - two > -/ > > or (if unicode is allowed) even > > -↓ > - one > - two > -↑ > > What do people think? The interaction with org-outdent-item would be > tricky. > > Cheers > > Will I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element. Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around. Regards, Cezar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 22:17 ` cezar @ 2008-02-09 22:50 ` William Henney 2008-02-09 23:26 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-09 23:41 ` cezar 0 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: William Henney @ 2008-02-09 22:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: > I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element. > Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around. But how would one distinguish a blank line that ends a list from a blank line that separates paragraphs within a list item? You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list marker is not necessary. Cheers Will -- Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 22:50 ` William Henney @ 2008-02-09 23:26 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-10 1:09 ` William Henney 2008-02-09 23:41 ` cezar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-09 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: William Henney; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, cezar On Feb 9, 2008 4:50 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: > > I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element. > > Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around. > > But how would one distinguish a blank line that ends a list from a > blank line that separates paragraphs within a list item? > > You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is > important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list > marker is not necessary. That's why I suggested -----. It's really only needed as a terminator, but I like symmetry. I'd like to be able have something at the top, but it should not be required. Really, the terminator should not be required unless you need it to tell org to end the list, so we don't break current files. Edd ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 23:26 ` Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-10 1:09 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 3:55 ` Eddward DeVilla 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: William Henney @ 2008-02-10 1:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eddward DeVilla; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, cezar Hi Eddward On Feb 9, 2008 5:26 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 9, 2008 4:50 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: > > You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is > > important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list > > marker is not necessary. > > That's why I suggested -----. It's really only needed as a > terminator, but I like symmetry. I'd like to be able have something > at the top, but it should not be required. But it causes problems to allow the same marker to be used at the start and end. For instance, consider the following: ----- - item one - item two ----- <- point is on this line When I hit TAB, how is org to know whether the "-----" is supposed to start a new sublist (and so should be indented 3 spaces) or is meant to end the preceding list (and so should not be indented)? That is why I proposed that IF we are to have both start and end markers, THEN they need to be distinct. However, I now think that it would be better to just have end markers. Personally, I would prefer "-/" for the XMLish feel. My objections to "-----" are 1. It is hard to remember (was it 5 dashes or 4?) 2. It is a pain to type when you have the "tex" input method turned on 3. It conflicts with existing usage (sec 12.6.5 of the manual) * A line consisting of only dashes, and at least 5 of them, will be exported as a horizontal line (`<hr/>' in HTML). > Really, the terminator > should not be required unless you need it to tell org to end the list, > so we don't break current files. > Agreed. Cheers Will -- Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 1:09 ` William Henney @ 2008-02-10 3:55 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-10 4:47 ` William Henney 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-10 3:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: William Henney; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, cezar On Feb 9, 2008 7:09 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: > But it causes problems to allow the same marker to be used at the > start and end. For instance, consider the following: > > ----- > - item one > - item two > ----- <- point is on this line > > When I hit TAB, how is org to know whether the "-----" is supposed to > start a new sublist (and so should be indented 3 spaces) or is meant > to end the preceding list (and so should not be indented)? True. I wasn't counting on tab to always get that right. I usually hit M-RET for a sibling entry and M-RET M-right for a sub list I was counting on the indent to determine if it was a sub-list. Otherwise, it doesn't matter if it's and end or beginning, at least in my mind. Once I set an indent, I'd like it to stay though. I have folding lists, so I probably don't appreciate some of the issues. When I hit tab on an existing item, it folds or unfolds. > That is why I proposed that IF we are to have both start and end > markers, THEN they need to be distinct. However, I now think that it > would be better to just have end markers. Personally, I would prefer > "-/" for the XMLish feel. My objections to "-----" are I'm afraid you won't win me over with xml. I'm not fond of it. > 1. It is hard to remember (was it 5 dashes or 4?) I'd say five or more and left org format it. But then again, I'm not really tied to it. The hline was my first guess at something. It puts it in a box. I kind of like that. I'll probably find a case where I wouldn't though. > 2. It is a pain to type when you have the "tex" input method turned on I can't argue that. I've never used the tex input method. > 3. It conflicts with existing usage (sec 12.6.5 of the manual) > > * A line consisting of only dashes, and at least 5 of them, will be > exported as a horizontal line (`<hr/>' in HTML). Actually, I was thinking of having an indented hline to box in the list, but again that may be plain wrong. Also, I thought the hline had to start at the beginning of the line. My mistake. In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something that does the job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer. I'm looking for something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in plain text. (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a header.) I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, it doesn't look right to my eyes. Aside from the meaning in xml code, it does say end-of-list to me. If anything, it seems to connect the preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that. The dashes draw a dividing line. Edd ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 3:55 ` Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-10 4:47 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 5:05 ` Eddward DeVilla 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: William Henney @ 2008-02-10 4:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eddward DeVilla; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: > In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something that does the > job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer. I'm looking for > something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in > plain text. (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a > header.) I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, it > doesn't look right to my eyes. Aside from the meaning in xml code, it > does say end-of-list to me. If anything, it seems to connect the > preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that. The dashes draw a > dividing line. How about "-." ? Will -- Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 4:47 ` William Henney @ 2008-02-10 5:05 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-10 7:29 ` Carsten Dominik 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-10 5:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: William Henney; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: > > In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something that does the > > job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer. I'm looking for > > something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in > > plain text. (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a > > header.) I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, it > > doesn't look right to my eyes. Aside from the meaning in xml code, it > > does say end-of-list to me. If anything, it seems to connect the > > preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that. The dashes draw a > > dividing line. > > How about "-." ? Better. Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle. Actually, since that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is. Font lock can hide it or gray it out. It could look like a blank line without the ambiguity. Edd ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 5:05 ` Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-10 7:29 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-10 8:00 ` cezar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-10 7:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eddward DeVilla; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Hi Everyone, I am personally not fond of separators, and we must be sure what their purpose is. As a means of terminating a list for export and folding, you can use empty lines when setting the variable `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists' discovered by Will. Or any text that is no linger indented behind the bullet marker. But if I understand correctly, this is really about indentation and about M-q paragraph wrapping. I have thought about how to make aragraph wrapping to respect the indentation of a line after a plain list item and failed. I cannot figure it out. For paragraph wrapping we would really need a separator, and then we would need to add this separator to the regular expressions in `paragraph-start' and `paragraph-separate', obscure pieces of the Emacs formatting which do not work really consistent between different commands fill-paragraph and fill-region). EIther that, or I am not really able to comprehend how this works. About indentation, there are other possible conventions one could use. Right now, TAB will indent a line under a plain list item to beyond the item bullet. Independent of the current indentation. So it will indent lines with low indentation, and outdent lines with too large indentations. One could have different conventions. For example, we could do this: In the line after a plain list item: - when the indentation is 0 or when the line is empty, make TAB indent to under the line before, as if you intended to continue the item. - when the line is not empty and already indented, keep that indentation. I am not sure if that would be seen as more consistent and stable, up for discussion. - Carsten On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:05 AM, Eddward DeVilla wrote: > On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: >>> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something that does >>> the >>> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer. I'm looking for >>> something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in >>> plain text. (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a >>> header.) I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, >>> it >>> doesn't look right to my eyes. Aside from the meaning in xml >>> code, it >>> does say end-of-list to me. If anything, it seems to connect the >>> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that. The dashes draw a >>> dividing line. >> >> How about "-." ? > > Better. Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle. Actually, since > that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is. > Font lock can hide it or gray it out. It could look like a blank line > without the ambiguity. > > Edd > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 7:29 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-10 8:00 ` cezar 2008-02-10 10:58 ` Carsten Dominik 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: cezar @ 2008-02-10 8:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode Personally I do like: - this way of indenting a long line that extends to more than one line So an idea that comes to mind is, how about disabling indentation for lists and have a special way of editing a list item like so: - have your list content here up to a point where you press <C-M-TAB> and that indents your next line (or pointer) So pressing just TAB in a list content won't have any effect. Hope that helps. Regards, Cezar Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes: > Hi Everyone, > > I am personally not fond of separators, and we must be sure what > their purpose is. As a means of terminating a list for export > and folding, you can use empty lines when setting the variable > `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists' discovered by Will. > Or any text that is no linger indented behind the bullet marker. > > But if I understand correctly, this is really about indentation and > about M-q paragraph wrapping. > > I have thought about how to make aragraph wrapping to respect the > indentation of a line after a plain list item and failed. I cannot > figure it out. > > For paragraph wrapping we would really need a separator, and then we > would need to add this separator to the regular expressions in > `paragraph-start' and `paragraph-separate', obscure pieces of the > Emacs formatting which do not work really consistent between different > commands fill-paragraph and fill-region). EIther that, or I am not > really able to comprehend how this works. > > About indentation, there are other possible conventions one could use. > Right now, TAB will indent a line under a plain list item to beyond > the item bullet. Independent of the current indentation. So it will > indent lines with low indentation, and outdent lines with too large > indentations. > > One could have different conventions. For example, we could do this: > In the line after a plain list item: > - when the indentation is 0 or when the line is empty, make TAB indent > to under the line before, as if you intended to continue the item. > - when the line is not empty and already indented, keep that > indentation. > > I am not sure if that would be seen as more consistent and stable, up > for discussion. > > - Carsten > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:05 AM, Eddward DeVilla wrote: > >> On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something that does >>>> the >>>> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer. I'm looking for >>>> something that visually looks like a natural footer or terminator in >>>> plain text. (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a >>>> header.) I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, >>>> it >>>> doesn't look right to my eyes. Aside from the meaning in xml >>>> code, it >>>> does say end-of-list to me. If anything, it seems to connect the >>>> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that. The dashes draw a >>>> dividing line. >>> >>> How about "-." ? >> >> Better. Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle. Actually, since >> that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is. >> Font lock can hide it or gray it out. It could look like a blank line >> without the ambiguity. >> >> Edd >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 8:00 ` cezar @ 2008-02-10 10:58 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-10 19:26 ` cezar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-10 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4287 bytes --] Are you talking about something like longlines.el? I am not sure if you understand what you mean. - Carsten On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:00 AM, cezar wrote: > > Personally I do like: > > - this way of indenting a long line > that extends to more than one line > > So an idea that comes to mind is, how about disabling indentation for > lists and have a special way of editing a list item like so: > > - have your list content here up to a point where you press <C-M-TAB> > and that indents your next line (or pointer) > > So pressing just TAB in a list content won't have any effect. > > Hope that helps. > > Regards, > Cezar > > Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes: > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> I am personally not fond of separators, and we must be sure what >> their purpose is. As a means of terminating a list for export >> and folding, you can use empty lines when setting the variable >> `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists' discovered by Will. >> Or any text that is no linger indented behind the bullet marker. >> >> But if I understand correctly, this is really about indentation and >> about M-q paragraph wrapping. >> >> I have thought about how to make aragraph wrapping to respect the >> indentation of a line after a plain list item and failed. I cannot >> figure it out. >> >> For paragraph wrapping we would really need a separator, and then we >> would need to add this separator to the regular expressions in >> `paragraph-start' and `paragraph-separate', obscure pieces of the >> Emacs formatting which do not work really consistent between >> different >> commands fill-paragraph and fill-region). EIther that, or I am not >> really able to comprehend how this works. >> >> About indentation, there are other possible conventions one could >> use. >> Right now, TAB will indent a line under a plain list item to beyond >> the item bullet. Independent of the current indentation. So it will >> indent lines with low indentation, and outdent lines with too large >> indentations. >> >> One could have different conventions. For example, we could do this: >> In the line after a plain list item: >> - when the indentation is 0 or when the line is empty, make TAB >> indent >> to under the line before, as if you intended to continue the item. >> - when the line is not empty and already indented, keep that >> indentation. >> >> I am not sure if that would be seen as more consistent and stable, up >> for discussion. >> >> - Carsten >> >> On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:05 AM, Eddward DeVilla wrote: >> >>> On Feb 9, 2008 10:47 PM, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Feb 9, 2008 9:55 PM, Eddward DeVilla <eddward@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> In any case, I'm just trying to come up with something that does >>>>> the >>>>> job but is not an eye sore in the org buffer. I'm looking for >>>>> something that visually looks like a natural footer or >>>>> terminator in >>>>> plain text. (And a footer ought to be able to be preceeded by a >>>>> header.) I know the significance of the '/' in xml, but visually, >>>>> it >>>>> doesn't look right to my eyes. Aside from the meaning in xml >>>>> code, it >>>>> does say end-of-list to me. If anything, it seems to connect the >>>>> preceeding and proceeding text, like this/that. The dashes draw a >>>>> dividing line. >>>> >>>> How about "-." ? >>> >>> Better. Still kind of cryptic, but more subtle. Actually, since >>> that's all that's on the line, it really doesn't matter what it is. >>> Font lock can hide it or gray it out. It could look like a blank >>> line >>> without the ambiguity. >>> >>> Edd >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 10130 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --] _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 10:58 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2008-02-10 19:26 ` cezar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: cezar @ 2008-02-10 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes: > Are you talking about something like longlines.el? I am not sure > if you understand what you mean. > > - Carsten I was suggesting another way you could keep the current formatting and also deal with the indentation (by disabling indentation for lists). Cezar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 22:50 ` William Henney 2008-02-09 23:26 ` Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-02-09 23:41 ` cezar 2008-02-10 1:28 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 20:42 ` Bastien Guerry 1 sibling, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: cezar @ 2008-02-09 23:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:50:04 -0600, William Henney wrote: > On Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: >> I think a "terminator" would be better for the last list element. >> Something like a blank line. I am not sure, just throwing ideas around. > > But how would one distinguish a blank line that ends a list from a blank > line that separates paragraphs within a list item? > > You are right, though, that it is the end-of-list marker that is > important. On reflection, it seems to me that a beginning-of-list marker > is not necessary. > > Cheers > > Will How common is a blank line in a list item ? I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item. Regards, Cezar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 23:41 ` cezar @ 2008-02-10 1:28 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 1:33 ` Cezar Halmagean 2008-02-10 20:42 ` Bastien Guerry 1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: William Henney @ 2008-02-10 1:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Hi Cezar On Feb 9, 2008 5:41 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: > How common is a blank line in a list item ? > I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item. I agree that multi-paragraph list items are not that common. A quick random sampling of my own org files indicates about 3 instances per 1000 lines (so about 70 in total - wow, I have over 23,000 lines of org files!). However, the point is that they do exist and up to now have been (at least implicitly) encouraged. I think that, all else being equal, it is best to maintain backwards compatibility. On the other hand, if the majority decision were to outlaw multi-paragraph list items, then I wouldn't be unduly upset. A list item that complicated should probably have been a separate subheading anyway. Cheers Will -- Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 1:28 ` William Henney @ 2008-02-10 1:33 ` Cezar Halmagean 2008-02-10 1:35 ` William Henney 0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread From: Cezar Halmagean @ 2008-02-10 1:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: William Henney; +Cc: emacs-orgmode I guess you are right. I should start using subheadings :) Regards, Cezar "William Henney" <whenney@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Cezar > > On Feb 9, 2008 5:41 PM, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> wrote: >> How common is a blank line in a list item ? >> I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item. > > I agree that multi-paragraph list items are not that common. A quick > random sampling of my own org files indicates about 3 instances per > 1000 lines (so about 70 in total - wow, I have over 23,000 lines of > org files!). However, the point is that they do exist and up to now > have been (at least implicitly) encouraged. > > I think that, all else being equal, it is best to maintain backwards > compatibility. On the other hand, if the majority decision were to > outlaw multi-paragraph list items, then I wouldn't be unduly upset. A > list item that complicated should probably have been a separate > subheading anyway. > > Cheers > > Will > > > > -- > > Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, > Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia > -- Simplify, simplify, simplify. -- Henry David Thoreau Simplify. -- Wendy McElroy ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-10 1:33 ` Cezar Halmagean @ 2008-02-10 1:35 ` William Henney 0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: William Henney @ 2008-02-10 1:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Cezar Halmagean; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Hi Cezar On Feb 9, 2008 7:33 PM, Cezar Halmagean <cezar@mixandgo.com> wrote: > > I guess you are right. I should start using subheadings :) > No, I meant that *I* should have been using subheadings instead of multi-paragraph list items :) Anyhow, I just found this in the manual: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Empty lines are part of the previous item, so you can have several paragraphs in one item. If you would like an empty line to terminate all currently open plain lists, configure the variable `org-empty-line-terminates-plain-lists'. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Have you tried configuring that variable? Maybe it does what you want. Cheers Will -- Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: list indentation 2008-02-09 23:41 ` cezar 2008-02-10 1:28 ` William Henney @ 2008-02-10 20:42 ` Bastien Guerry 1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread From: Bastien Guerry @ 2008-02-10 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cezar; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Hi Ceazr, cezar <cezar@mixandgo.ro> writes: > How common is a blank line in a list item ? > I'd say it's more common for a blank line to end a list item. FWIW I often use multi-paragraphs in a list item. I think it should be outlawed. Generally speaking, I think we shouldn't put too many constraints on the way the text has to be formatted, even if it costs the user two or three additional keystrokes. Best, -- Bastien ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-02-10 20:42 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 24+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2008-02-07 18:58 list indentation cezar 2008-02-07 23:31 ` Hugo Schmitt 2008-02-08 9:24 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-09 0:29 ` cezar 2008-02-09 7:17 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-09 7:26 ` cezar 2008-02-09 17:02 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-09 21:45 ` William Henney 2008-02-09 22:17 ` cezar 2008-02-09 22:50 ` William Henney 2008-02-09 23:26 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-10 1:09 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 3:55 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-10 4:47 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 5:05 ` Eddward DeVilla 2008-02-10 7:29 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-10 8:00 ` cezar 2008-02-10 10:58 ` Carsten Dominik 2008-02-10 19:26 ` cezar 2008-02-09 23:41 ` cezar 2008-02-10 1:28 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 1:33 ` Cezar Halmagean 2008-02-10 1:35 ` William Henney 2008-02-10 20:42 ` Bastien Guerry
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