From: "Cook, Malcolm" <MEC@stowers.org>
To: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>,
Steve Downey <sdowney@gmail.com>
Cc: Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>,
Org-mode <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>, Jon Snader <jcs@irreal.org>
Subject: Re: [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]")
Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 16:54:57 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CY4PR2001MB1077DF3B2527E07A55602E49BE810@CY4PR2001MB1077.namprd20.prod.outlook.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <871sevime2.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
Thanks for the re-cap.
I'm changing my vote.
Make the change! Change the default! And make lots of noise advertising it (make more prominent https://orgmode.org/Changes.html , etc).
Someone suggested going to v10.x Is there a case for this?
Thx of org!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emacs-orgmode <emacs-orgmode-
> bounces+mec=stowers.org@gnu.org> On Behalf Of Nicolas Goaziou
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2018 7:36 AM
> To: Steve Downey <sdowney@gmail.com>
> Cc: Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>; Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>; Org-
> mode <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>; Jon Snader <jcs@irreal.org>
> Subject: Re: [O] [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand
> templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]")
>
> Hello,
>
> Steve Downey <sdowney@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Asking users to accept any breakage in the tool they use to get work done
> > is a lot. Changes in UI in emacs are opt-in.
> >
> > Even if the change is the right thing to do.
>
> I think some of you (basically, anyone thinking we should enable "<s
> TAB" by default ;)) are missing the point.
>
>
> The first important thing to understand is that, even if we enable
> `org-tempo' by default, next Org release /will break/ for some of us.
>
> - It will break because `org-tempo' is only 99% backward-compatible. So
> anyone having customizing templates is bound to change them.
>
> - It will break because there are 9 other incompatible changes between
> 9.1 and 9.2.
>
> So, asking to load `org-tempo' by default just to avoid breaking users
> set-up is a wrong argument. It will only "protect" those among us that
> use "<s TAB" but didn't customize /and/ are not affected by the other
> incompatible changes. IOW, updating Org from 9.1 to 9.2 will not be
> smooth for everyone. No matter what `org-tempo' becomes.
>
>
> The second important point is there is a general design issue at stake.
> Sorry, there is no pleasure in inflicting "torture" (as I read in this
> thread) to users.
>
> Org is too big. Its (lack of) design is wrong.
>
> This is not from me, but from some the Emacs developers, in particular
> Richard Stallman. You may want to read the thread "Differences between
> Org-Mode and Hyperbole" in emacs-devel mailing list archives for the
> exact quote.
>
> Org has to be big, because it is featureful. Yet, we cannot ignore the
> remark. Also, that doesn't mean we cannot do anything to improve the
> situation. Actually, there are, at least, two areas in which we can make
> progress:
>
> 1. externalize Org features that apply to other major modes, or drop
> them if there are equivalents to them,
>
> 2. re-using (external) Emacs facilities for Org mode features that are
> not central for us.
>
> Not so long ago, we provided footnotes for other modes, even though
> "footnote.el" had been there for a long time. This clearly felt into
> (1), so we dropped the feature. Recently, I wrote "orgalist.el", which
> ports Org plain lists into other modes. I moved it out of Org core
> because of (1). It is now available in GNU ELPA.
>
> Expansion templates are a great thing, but this is only sugar for Org,
> which is totally usable without them. Besides, some facilities are
> providing it for us. This falls into (2). By design, I'm convinced we
> should not include them. I also wish that anyone involved in this thread
> can take a step back to see the whole picture.
>
> The question is not about you using "<s TAB": you now know (require
> 'org-tempo) could solve this. The question is not about breaking other
> configurations: there always have been breakage and there will be again.
> The question is about designing Org so it fits well -- better, at
> least -- in the Emacs ecosystem. This means no unreasonable feature
> overlap and enough modularity to be re-usable from other parts in Emacs.
>
>
> Back to the current poll. It would be more efficient to think about
> solutions to make the update less painful. In particular, how can we
> tell users updating from ELPA about the necessary changes involved.
>
> I remember that Magit experimented displaying a message the first time
> you used a new release; you would silence it only by setting a variable.
> I don't think this is the case anymore, so it may have failed, though.
> We could also make the <https://orgmode.org/Changes.html> page more
> prominent in the summary displayed along with the package.
>
>
> Now back to the poll.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou
>
> P.S: Bastien, would you please stop lobbying in every other
> communication canal out there, that's not fair ;)
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-05-01 16:55 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 87+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-04-29 15:06 [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]") Jon Snader
2018-04-30 20:37 ` Richard Lawrence
2018-04-30 20:46 ` Peter Dewey Ore
2018-04-30 21:33 ` Michael Gauland
2018-04-30 21:46 ` Jon Snader
2018-04-30 22:25 ` Tim Cross
2018-04-30 22:35 ` Cook, Malcolm
2018-04-30 22:39 ` Jon Snader
2018-04-30 22:49 ` Kaushal Modi
2018-05-01 1:29 ` Alan Tyree
2018-05-01 14:07 ` Christophe Schockaert
2018-05-01 2:00 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-01 2:27 ` Steve Downey
2018-05-01 12:35 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-05-01 16:28 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-05 18:07 ` Rasmus
2018-05-06 20:34 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-06 22:11 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-07 22:30 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 0:25 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-08 7:36 ` Bastien
2018-05-13 20:52 ` Rasmus
2018-05-01 16:54 ` Cook, Malcolm [this message]
2018-05-05 18:01 ` Rasmus
2018-05-06 5:00 ` Carsten Dominik
2018-05-07 22:33 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 7:37 ` Bastien
2018-05-21 14:35 ` Rasmus
2018-05-05 23:26 ` Adrian Bradd
2018-05-05 23:37 ` Josiah Schwab
2018-05-08 7:31 ` Bastien
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2018-04-29 10:24 Bastien
2018-04-29 10:50 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-04-29 11:05 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 12:01 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-04-29 13:22 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 17:40 ` Thomas S. Dye
2018-04-29 20:56 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 22:05 ` Tim Cross
2018-04-29 22:31 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 22:27 ` Tim Cross
2018-04-29 23:03 ` Bastien
2018-04-30 10:29 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-04-30 14:03 ` Kevin Foley
2018-04-30 14:17 ` Kevin Foley
2018-05-05 17:20 ` Rasmus
2018-05-02 12:43 ` Bernt Hansen
2018-05-08 6:23 ` Bastien
2018-05-05 17:17 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 6:27 ` Bastien
2018-05-01 15:49 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-01 19:31 ` Eric S Fraga
2018-05-02 9:10 ` Rasmus Pank Roulund
2018-05-02 17:12 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-05 17:29 ` Rasmus
2018-05-06 20:02 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-07 22:53 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 0:57 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-08 6:56 ` Bastien
2018-05-21 14:24 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 6:52 ` Bastien
2018-05-21 14:19 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 6:34 ` Bastien
2018-04-30 8:47 ` Eric S Fraga
2018-05-08 8:37 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 13:24 ` Christian Moe
2018-04-29 13:55 ` Charles Millar
2018-04-29 19:08 ` Diego Zamboni
2018-04-29 20:30 ` Rasmus
2018-04-29 20:44 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 23:32 ` Bernt Hansen
2018-05-02 20:24 ` Bernt Hansen
2018-05-03 9:44 ` Carsten Dominik
2018-05-03 13:30 ` William Denton
2018-05-04 7:34 ` Neil Jerram
2018-05-04 7:45 ` Bastien
2018-05-05 1:37 ` Samuel Wales
2018-05-05 2:16 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-05 2:28 ` Samuel Wales
2018-05-05 2:37 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-05 12:42 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-05-05 17:33 ` Rasmus
2018-05-01 11:57 ` Nick Helm
2018-04-29 20:25 ` Rasmus
2018-04-29 21:53 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-05-02 9:03 ` Rasmus
2018-04-30 16:36 ` Steve Downey
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