From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id JX+NFElD82Bp/wAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 22:53:29 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id eG+fD0lD82DIKAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 20:53:29 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A9971981C for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 22:53:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:55458 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m4rJO-0004pA-GJ for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:53:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46302) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m4rIo-0004oy-F0 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:52:50 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]:39881) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m4rIl-0002ye-5V for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:52:50 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id f17so16210663wrt.6 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 13:52:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=StGmwBUJU1Jufm4Pxmx6TcBAgCkgoll513H7oYN/im0=; b=oU+Aj5HJ1zLFTFggfsAeGYyKK1ZduDNLvyK5SWn9yQXMUJDBhTHe+Wi0vHLcwUdEUB PGggXSknRSc8AcJsV2Wh5ZTxfJBIX6bcXL6Mz5GGI0YrymzbZZvBKvAMJv4nFdD9h6V7 xf4zrzdHOLxnfinylHCY8yKqm7x9vrXsyZh7jgaaBxZUwb4FtMsNFcBMllsNP+Umh3ZH M1RKNy/PwS8XL10PtGrAugGW85LimboYFjBDqmR4HBLQA8jtOE4FpO+jqrG4FAPQbZzC Fc+bPySxlgh7Z1XHpDR2OTAtMo9bC4UmQj/uVA8VkCGbJ5qCUuG5CTJO8FkPVdrlCgff pywg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=StGmwBUJU1Jufm4Pxmx6TcBAgCkgoll513H7oYN/im0=; b=sRpZS10xKM2Ne9YFoGnRHug0BkhHSW+gl44PJtqfVJKWw39b6SFB+vC2ZaE+dGzFwV oCiXHej3tUf92nK0Ka5X+dsbLtHq7d09eELLVLS5YOzM78/3Vi2TWO2wCDovv3XxRpkN Aev0JP3Lg6iMAsVk5rC+ssT2mUgPT2w0RQQn+MKjGi4/KQqNhVxBNq8Cq1Y5Nj1+oltT MayFNBivg37uAWZNfYhJhOG1xZYEAYJ/3I+As0EACSzTZH1mro6j6DbnThVKAMH0Vfxn OqavNpHzhdLTfRQ+rxprJlSXaP3sF5y2kAVMN55CYMRQAmaIJRKdATqtm08vzCWAc7DG 9KCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Xit+irBoEAP/w2VGK/KFHWaAzuA0176P04ktPwWaLLbBYG9Kh i0ENz4jTenNMYNPzzl5Ae8vXl43VJ3WqxWhIXQI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+Ih9JPu9aSBQR93y+3zAOoDuH0agDYR0RBGfPgfhGzHL8NtL0krAyxUSoG0a385PFWexqbloS1cJ/2x+Ri/Q= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4a4c:: with SMTP id v12mr20456449wrs.256.1626555164675; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210717113533.v4sdts2r662zhmwb@dalkati> <20210717141605.2p6ja5awfm3qqda4@dalkati> In-Reply-To: From: John Kitchin Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:52:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: org-cite citation commands To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc505d05c757e232" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42f; envelope-from=johnrkitchin@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: org-mode mailing list Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1626555209; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=StGmwBUJU1Jufm4Pxmx6TcBAgCkgoll513H7oYN/im0=; b=d97UCNMqMYfH4zmWrsAy9LR5dxOlNRMjM7t/EIVpi9vAqoWF0JkPTKff6KPxodJ971gIS3 /HtJmFd8CBnXrYfhgiH7rKM++vhnt8iviHVHsrrmQU30xnNpsdnbZiSPhzrWd+oxHeYFFX IcsEag5IrF5/iLHNQIhNAquEh92auqe+35DsYTYNwvFnwORu14CsHovY54S65MzEX2HKTa TupYrZN07CUtvtekUg5okEoPGXjuYG0JvnowKX6Xqw/fN/PwBw8YxhZSxc6g8hrrdZ7ZK8 dsKH7g8UGxA0klgyWf7/aO3XIw83oOKgye46ilMD1xHIRN4Ga2d/MIofIkhzRg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1626555209; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=r8eKp/Xke1ovNWauBgKjP6XHUyvOYSeUV9Gyv1+nd4wtWg44NNB+2ff2Vwk0LbzZZEWiJT C8XxoxJgtSUTxPVzBveDe/Wm0EqIc6Vp4MfKB8PE8Zujy1S4wbyZ3cKAvlTw6N2iRwi6WS inDbzCJhqKp+p7CV9XNHANEmYJ9OI90BFZxCm2xKo9dj5pVLjKcBdWVbWW+pMW53V8YPzs ooRjtNkz1LBnkEiX2Heas5VmJEPFgnI1Vs/37NjrhxQfeQQAm4DTgCsODpAZQaygnoIRKU zXHFQZOXAaPs0x4H04xPqOAbRUbJXDHhO3SPJ1CL6WeIEQlNuyVrGD5T68viDA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=oU+Aj5HJ; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=andrew.cmu.edu (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.51 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=oU+Aj5HJ; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=andrew.cmu.edu (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1A9971981C X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: Z2YmF2mw1lXG --000000000000cc505d05c757e232 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I made a video of my current org-cite setup at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ta4J20kpmM. You can also find a link to the code to run it in the description there. I don't intend this to be a final video (it is still a little rough!), it is just to help people see what I am thinking about for the future of org-ref, at least as far as the citations go. John ----------------------------------- Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his) Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 10:44 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 10:20 AM Vikas Rawal wrote: > > > Thanks, Bruce and John. Indeed, I used biblatex with natbib=true > > option, which gives me citet and citep in biblatex. But using > > \autocite and \textcite is perfect. > > > > I am noticing a few other issues at this stage. > > > > I have a large biblatex database, and loading it using C-c C-x @ to > > insert citations seems very slow (have not managed to load it thus > > far). Org-ref used to be much faster in this. org-cite works fine with > > a smaller biblatex database. I don't know if others have had the same > > experience. > > Give this a try: > > https://github.com/bdarcus/bibtex-actions#org-cite > > I hope to see similar "insert processors" for ivy-bibtex and helm-bibtex. > > Bottomline, it's trivial to replace that "basic" processor with much > better options. > > See discussion on: > > https://github.com/jkitchin/org-ref/issues/885 > > > I understand that oc-biblatex.el loads biblatex in the background, > > produces the citations and the bibliography, and inserts them in the > > exported output. In that case, what are the possibilities of using > > biblatex commands to configure the output? > > To be precise, you mean what are the options to configure the > oc-biblatex export processor to use different or additional commands? > > ATM, I don't believe there are any, and the alternative is to write > your own export processor, say basing it off the oc-biblatex one. > > What, specifically, do you need, that is not currently supported? > > The current processors are pretty comprehensive; see the note from Andras. > > When designing this sort of thing, you basically have a choice. > > You can just have styles that map directly to the output targets. > > This has an obvious advantage if you only ever use one target. > > But it has a major disadvantage if you want to use others. > > So the approach we took here is to design a common set of styles and > substyles, and then map to output formats from there. > > The result is the citations are more-or-less export format agnostic. > > > I realise that these will > > not work since most of it would be LaTeX specific. Does that mean the > > users will have to work with CSL styles to format the output even if > > they are using oc-biblatex.el? I am still somewhat confused about how > > this is going to work. > > CSL styles are analogous to BST files in bibtex; you use those with oc-csl. > > When using that, citeproc-el handles the output processing, including for > latex. > > Basically, if you want consistent output formatting across latex and > other targets like HTML or OpenDocument, you want to use oc-csl. > > Give it a try. > > Note, though, that citeproc-el does not currently support cite/t or > some others, but that should be coming "soon". > > HTH; let me know if anything is unclear. > > Bruce > --000000000000cc505d05c757e232 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I made a video of my current org-cite setup at=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com= /watch?v=3D4ta4J20kpmM. You can also find a link to the code to run it = in the description there.

I don't intend this to be = a final video (it is still a little rough!), it is just to help people see = what I am thinking about for the future of org-ref,=C2=A0at least as far as= the citations go.

John

-----------------------------------
Prof= essor John Kitchin (he/him/his)
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chem= ical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
4= 12-268-7803


On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 10= :44 AM Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@g= mail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 10:20 AM Vikas Rawal <vikasrawal@gmail.com> wrote:=

> Thanks, Bruce and John. Indeed, I used biblatex with natbib=3Dtrue
> option, which gives me citet and citep in biblatex. But using
> \autocite and \textcite is perfect.
>
> I am noticing a few other issues at this stage.
>
> I have a large biblatex database, and loading it using C-c C-x @ to > insert citations seems very slow (have not managed to load it thus
> far). Org-ref used to be much faster in this. org-cite works fine with=
> a smaller biblatex database. I don't know if others have had the s= ame
> experience.

Give this a try:

https://github.com/bdarcus/bibtex-actions#org-cite=

I hope to see similar "insert processors" for ivy-bibtex and helm= -bibtex.

Bottomline, it's trivial to replace that "basic" processor wi= th much
better options.

See discussion on:

https://github.com/jkitchin/org-ref/issues/885

> I understand that oc-biblatex.el loads biblatex in the background,
> produces the citations and the bibliography, and inserts them in the > exported output. In that case, what are the possibilities of using
> biblatex commands to configure the output?

To be precise, you mean what are the options to configure the
oc-biblatex export processor to use different or additional commands?

ATM, I don't believe there are any, and the alternative is to write
your own export processor, say basing it off the oc-biblatex one.

What, specifically, do you need, that is not currently supported?

The current processors are pretty comprehensive; see the note from Andras.<= br>
When designing this sort of thing, you basically have a choice.

You can just have styles that map directly to the output targets.

This has an obvious advantage if you only ever use one target.

But it has a major disadvantage if you want to use others.

So the approach we took here is to design a common set of styles and
substyles, and then map to output formats from there.

The result is the citations are more-or-less export format agnostic.

> I realise that these will
> not work since most of it would be LaTeX specific. Does that mean the<= br> > users will have to work with CSL styles to format the output even if > they are using oc-biblatex.el? I am still somewhat confused about how<= br> > this is going to work.

CSL styles are analogous to BST files in bibtex; you use those with oc-csl.=

When using that, citeproc-el handles the output processing, including for l= atex.

Basically, if you want consistent output formatting across latex and
other targets like HTML or OpenDocument, you want to use oc-csl.

Give it a try.

Note, though, that citeproc-el does not currently support cite/t or
some others, but that should be coming "soon".

HTH; let me know if anything is unclear.

Bruce
--000000000000cc505d05c757e232--