From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id UK7+NBZN/16AewAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 15:21:58 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id QP+FMBZN/15MUAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 15:21:58 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AE6B940308 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 15:21:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:57252 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jrNVj-00006G-1A for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 11:21:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48738) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jrNTt-0006a5-Qj for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 11:20:01 -0400 Received: from mail-ua1-x941.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::941]:36868) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jrNTs-0004MH-1H for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 11:20:01 -0400 Received: by mail-ua1-x941.google.com with SMTP id q15so9935717uap.4 for ; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 08:19:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zsat5uw/Z+0jAXv2siT8LcKexeCTODNuuYdFr+olfw4=; b=UVVYR9gxCmIDqfvDFCrY5XehJJUEzM+wmlQY5WQTlFZB5N/sCKwSJ+TelBUzthtcWJ 2Ba06SK5Fg6z3zWq4xxam+S+ls9mjfPWYmtl2B2FRzDi0BHKyonGwjPpmhg46txBZ1NT 5PojIOjArgD10/BLB2j6WmyEgE/7J1tgZoPxXZBYIJEJfmCCG7MwCG2HYUAeSLLVjEwx Y0vbEhVJD6NR7P1tXPWIgHwTP02QT3iXdLkG2/gMA9B9MWyX/KLzfCmAUYogmtueQ5zr 8/a4Qvth+ey81Unu+6ViFrj6WgVHRpp7BzM5dQcucKnFP1sWOn7eioQePFEpQs5lJATs YSrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=zsat5uw/Z+0jAXv2siT8LcKexeCTODNuuYdFr+olfw4=; b=UDgfTawmJR50WPIO2dp1uY4LthPpxE3j/tEfP9Ra89mnSdH4Ips6lk10m8jQj3KJUC VqG0kpF9j1K5noY2ApKAvGi2JxccKGdqgIVvdChnZ8M1f/qah9hV9MFCseX3kA/v1dx4 alCsycpx1PXdZsu04+HpdnC9mXxSWF0B8ef0auNRoXIQPJCZ+ag3pLWlZfITog+jXKWH RsrWUM36duRdx0IYcqiFAIRhJxvb2q2r6nLdZypPd5ypchAnrYGKlDR7TXLietrkMesV 2L3696hVUzNGZCMjKPaRXNVF7W9WLMRXGTOvxw415Tv6bPTN2jYKDmkC4FflcfU/Ehp7 83+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533N/3ntfyEXPv443pL8X8sUkbRIHgS6tJ0Qu4jXDJVn/I6nFlWJ szAJ/0+6ZGW7FKg7l5yV0AOpahU7nKycvDHHyF4Q1Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw63dQZYBu6ICqDB8a/t2zxA19MutA2wlFr+UyLkPc+BbGeTdmxOxijei1fLDfjs5FQIUEqhdlPBQCBz6xutXQ= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:29cb:: with SMTP id i11mr10646183uaq.12.1593789598651; Fri, 03 Jul 2020 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <877dvzwtdy.fsf@kyleam.com> <87d05rcpgh.fsf@gmail.com> <871rm6wson.fsf@kyleam.com> <87mu4svaj9.fsf@gmail.com> <87lfkctqkl.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <877dvus2mx.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <877dvus2mx.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Shankar Rao Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 17:19:46 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add mode for automatically unhiding emphasis markers in the current region To: Shankar Rao , Gustavo Barros , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dfdb2b05a98b0ea0" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::941; envelope-from=shankar.rao@gmail.com; helo=mail-ua1-x941.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=UVVYR9gx; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.71 X-TUID: XIBFuE7r0ne1 --000000000000dfdb2b05a98b0ea0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I wrote my message in a hurry. Let me clarify it. > > I'm only talking about built-in tooling. I don't mind if a user have the > feature you're proposing, of course, as it is not wrong per se. > > However, I believe that's not the best solution for the problem we're > trying to solve. I think there's an opportunity to provide something > smarter, and less intrusive, to handle emphasis, which doesn't involve > messing with `post-command-hook'. > I agree with you that my solution is somewhat intrusive. Ideally, I would have preferred that my solution could leverage advice functions or some Org hook, so that I wouldn't have to modify org.el, but it doesn't seem like there is a straightforward way to do that. The modification of `post-command-hook', similar to one used for `prettify-symbols-mode', only occurs if `org-auto-emphasis-mode' is active > Like in a word processor, you don't need to see the markers to operate > on them. I don't think the usual "toggle" model is appropriate, however. > I suggest to use two commands: one for deleting the markers around point > or within active region, and one for inserting markers or extending > existing ones. > So in your system, in order to interact with emphasis markers, the user would have to learn two different commands? That doesn't seem to be in line with the dwim philosophy used in modern emacs packages. In my opinion, one of the strengths of Org is that the interface is multimodal. One can (in principle) edit documents in much the same way as word processors and rich text editors. However since everything underneath is implemented with just text, one can also directly access and manipulate this text. The ability to switch between these two modalities is extremely powerful and is what sets Org apart from other document editing systems. > Allow me to polish up my draft a bit, so we can compare the benefits of > each system. > I look forward to seeing your proposed system more concretely. Shankar Rao --000000000000dfdb2b05a98b0ea0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I wrote my message in a hurry. Let me clarify it.

I'm only talking about built-in tooling. I don't mind if a user hav= e the
feature you're proposing, of course, as it is not wrong per se.

However, I believe that's not the best solution for the problem we'= re
trying to solve. I think there's an opportunity to provide something smarter, and less intrusive, to handle emphasis, which doesn't involve<= br> messing with `post-command-hook'.

I= agree with you that my solution is somewhat intrusive. Ideally, I would ha= ve preferred that my solution could leverage advice functions or some Org h= ook, so that I wouldn't have to modify org.el, but it doesn't seem = like there is a straightforward way to do that. The modification of `post-c= ommand-hook', similar to one used for `prettify-symbols-mode', only= occurs if `org-auto-emphasis-mode' is active
=C2=A0
<= /div>
Like in a word processor, you don't need to see the markers to operate<= br> on them. I don't think the usual "toggle" model is appropriat= e, however.
I suggest to use two commands: one for deleting the markers around point or within active region, and one for inserting markers or extending
existing ones.
So in your system, in order to interact= with emphasis markers, the user would have to learn two different commands= ? That doesn't seem to be in line with the dwim philosophy used in mode= rn emacs packages.

In my opinion, one of the stren= gths of Org is that the interface is multimodal. One can (in principle) edi= t documents in much the same way as word processors and rich text editors. = However since everything underneath is implemented with just text, one can = also directly access and manipulate this text. The ability to switch betwee= n these two modalities is extremely powerful and is what sets Org apart fro= m other document editing systems.
=C2=A0
Allow me to polish up my draft a bit, so we can compare the benefits of
each system.

I look forward to seeing y= our proposed system more concretely.=C2=A0

Shankar= Rao
--000000000000dfdb2b05a98b0ea0--