From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>
Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::])
	(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS
	id gIXXMWdjpmCOugAAgWs5BA
	(envelope-from <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 15:25:59 +0200
Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::])
	(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	by mp2 with LMTPS
	id gMZ8LWdjpmB+agAAB5/wlQ
	(envelope-from <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 13:25:59 +0000
Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 100A01B51E
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 15:25:58 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from localhost ([::1]:60478 helo=lists1p.gnu.org)
	by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1)
	(envelope-from <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1ljigX-0000Qf-PK
	for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 09:25:57 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45076)
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <bdarcus@gmail.com>) id 1ljidA-0005se-5p
 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 09:22:28 -0400
Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]:33292)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <bdarcus@gmail.com>) id 1ljid7-0001Tb-4V
 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 09:22:27 -0400
Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id n2so17739965wrm.0
 for <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 06:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
 h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to;
 bh=89MnaZLA443/w937kqglE1DdBb+BgxX4WZYKV8x7Y3w=;
 b=OYa7/L/piDWZZmsc6zz2I1LbFB0M3+Vmmv89JycayRqNl2i2dXKeOLF2KWSo6mt7hU
 A/56qtyo1/0OqXlyYY2Gz862PgjY4+7lR71cTMWvmaJ+BQ8Y9nM7PvaWnHmIWI/Va1Mq
 5jfZEDjF/BVBDY7Bbj22gqW/KVkgDVOYUglmAtP2DNBkkJfKfjpUoL5XDojtPrl+Rcau
 Uq1K64qBegXsiKjDqIrz9kE+eVQYTIJGquyXG7OMuwZ/mMexhNJC7JOsxInQD1W/oeS7
 YrJtXwAbIELJib/D7Cq4axKcV1q5P/nG0WD0juzhbGFCbAQFi0Pe4XvHnPVTDz6vRvd2
 LkXA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
 h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
 :message-id:subject:to;
 bh=89MnaZLA443/w937kqglE1DdBb+BgxX4WZYKV8x7Y3w=;
 b=Cq015sCDCNIrpktK8zK2h3hVR9/wgC0WgUJWy3ozeRDna4q5wP7ji0FEPSe1+AFGwb
 1HRB52jyBec2nTNv3LHZkdJgMmJMpMls7ByGpb8XOJmK9//6Gi1zQ+nwqSwWmOlHriwA
 3ygLf2jBjLbR4MsJDGR8mGqSHfEKFsU8yqCBjNkbyzmZlutSeLP9BzraibWSLi9I1PlO
 2k+kYwXv1nv5Au8+t4213ZHn78ElLB9t9CSuyLIu9lLD7wZ1GSc6o1fv2CES1Oo+R4PQ
 zULqHyUUnjKr4n4H7Cd2ilw/HF9rVVN1ygMGUQB/XpNUMaUKlPo4wR/sc5PCC1h9R+nv
 oqPg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WrcCMZQ9TEFegZbuB9St4XGMgV8hCwouHT336J6OzWC5wucGP
 R2ficZnnQdsXdLoStzmhhxNzFsdvN7NwZ/A3nqeoWa90wWgr1w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxjAiYckT0ihiZGGB+hPcv1ZE3DLUkgOYre+KRgWposxlTbmO9ogxOJkFDeXaPAhLeWdtoNjTNKt+dcvUw1Lv4=
X-Received: by 2002:adf:d4c7:: with SMTP id w7mr4309812wrk.35.1621516942967;
 Thu, 20 May 2021 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <87bl985b3h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
 <10eb58b2-5da3-b768-cf56-87aa447346d7@mailbox.org>
 <CAF-FPGOz8bRH602p0hzRDQJF4+YQGMY+ppRyEz4QFfiP=1GboQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5a23225d-118a-d08e-a1d7-f9fe3791c1bf@mailbox.org>
 <87lf8a4z3a.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
 <52aade3f-3e8e-bd56-109e-c6cfd9254915@mailbox.org>
 <87mtsq3fy1.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
 <605c9586-384c-c4d4-d827-f97b1baf7c84@mailbox.org>
 <CAF-FPGOZNo4tnj3Zt0CRufm9GN2uVhoujzhve-gmUPZwFR7cqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8959af45-54f3-da9f-5af2-e23a64bebadd@mailbox.org>
In-Reply-To: <8959af45-54f3-da9f-5af2-e23a64bebadd@mailbox.org>
From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 09:22:11 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF-FPGP7830CX8qCQeitKRkZSckpNCrjRVyWxLC-KWONJ90e1A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Initial implementation of `biblatex' citation
 processor
To: org-mode-email <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42b;
 envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42b.google.com
X-Spam_score_int: -20
X-Spam_score: -2.1
X-Spam_bar: --
X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1,
 DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
Precedence: list
List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/emacs-orgmode>,
 <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode>
List-Post: <mailto:emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode>,
 <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org
Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>
X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org;
	s=key1; t=1621517159;
	h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:
	 message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:
	 content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:
	 references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:
	 list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature;
	bh=89MnaZLA443/w937kqglE1DdBb+BgxX4WZYKV8x7Y3w=;
	b=azxaqMsCD5j4rwB2czUiEKMWxJLBagM1ejva3Jn2JwlUdDuSXDO+410WlnR2RVPk6HnQOS
	kKMv5Nfj0ZcxCXDN0GqxV0K+wZ5bFDpouYsaiVPKzBQGOdeVWrfcuDWaUSXbQVP8VWB9Pz
	jNyYdwzmjQ1YMP+QGH78DbvjqpeZNp/5Lzk6C/JWekWnY/VfDhE72eklLYUUCarp5SoZyA
	sTYYq+ZVdcULL3XsQsHOTUFPI4Kc1fdcU+zcbprHux3/VOBzq/k7hMEM9ntsp0Kq+f8zCX
	osxnQCXZUq0DpTQUA+P2+RxmBRpkPATiGZuAIfYDxNfXGkvzrxobWG6KLZ83Cg==
ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621517159; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none;
	b=QFhjlsbS7G5bpIlCZCNpkkikQi1V4s1IppLQzz3y7pcVEj/Is9KKYbKBrNXj8q+FjUGQYQ
	Bnin+DUWpIjQ/jnryOinbDO4fXmG9FAYNlHhKsjAa/p7HV+7OizAKRUT88Oiprg/VtZDv/
	/iTP4+SmHKp2gQQ6IGgutho74DJiRjaLi+P/uY+3xBPd0z8lZGfPfk/xtC29Bj0ZVGJExE
	zI6cwLX41tQ1NH0liYfmonQDB9M7/y38JYrCB3bdZY523OB/Xxy65cMO1xukHHQKw+Le2Q
	k6PC17YAkv33/x/Fl69vyzwkwx9/xT9EEA/GrVe+wL0/jk1cO5xjJXTjlbEp3w==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1;
	aspmx1.migadu.com;
	dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="OYa7/L/p";
	dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com;
	spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org
X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14
Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com;
	dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="OYa7/L/p";
	dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com;
	spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org
X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 100A01B51E
X-Spam-Score: -3.14
X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com
X-TUID: eIo8WpkJQuq4

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:07 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:
>
> Am 20.05.2021 um 12:36 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:18 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:

> >> But maybe cite/plain or cite/basic or so?
> >
> > First, are those two suggestions just synonyms for cite/bare?
>
> Yes. Nicolas complained about cite/bare so I've thought cite/plain may
> be nicer. (See autocite=plain) But the biblatex manual uses itself the
> term "bare".

OK.

I don't care; I suggested "bare" because the earlier "alt" was super vague.

> > Or are you indeed suggesting completely changing the current logic of
> > these styles and substyles? E.g "bare' substyle becomes rather a
> > "plain" or "basic" style?
>
> I'm not really sure we need bare substyles at all. At least in biblatex
> it's the basis for the other commands.

Though see my followup message on autocite config.

Does that change this discussion?

...

> > If yes, I need to think on this more.
> >
> >> |-----------+---------------+--------------|
> >> | parens    | noauthor-caps | Parencite*   |
> >> | parens    | noauthor      | parencite*   |
> >> | parens    | caps          | Parencite    |
> >> | parens    |               | parencite    |
> >> |-----------+---------------+--------------|
> >> | plain     | noauthor-caps | Cite*        |
> >> | plain     | noauthor      | cite*        |
> >> | plain     | caps          | Cite         |
> >> | plain     |               | cite         |
> >> |-----------+---------------+--------------|
> >
> > Second, I don't understand some of the above.
> >
> > Why "noauthor", for example? Is that not handled currently with a "year" style?
> >
> > cite/year/caps
>
> First of all, what does capitalization of a number mean? There's no
> \Citeyear in biblatex, after all.

Right; I should not have used that example :-)

> But that aside, \citeauthor, \citetitle and \citeyear are lower level
> commands than \cite*{}.
> \cite* will work in author-date styles and in author-title styles. It
> will either print the date or the title. When using \citeyear directly
> you cannot easily switch to a different style. And: citeyear etc. don't
> use the internal trackers (ibid., idem., etc.).
>
> #+begin_example
> At the beginning Doe argues this and that (2020, p. 20). He goes on to
> say blabla, see ibid., p. 23.
> #+end_example
>
> In order to get the ibid., you'll need a \cite* instead of just a
> \citeyear or so.

Shouldn't that example be covered in org-cite by, respectively ...

cite/year
cite/bare (or plain)

...?

> > And how would all of this map to natbib and citeproc? >
> > The style+substyles really should work well across the output formats,
> > and gracefully fallback if certain variants, particularly in biblatex,
> > aren't available in other formats.
> >
> > Is that the case with your suggested changes?
>
> The problem is indeed portability between csl and biblatex (and natbib).
> I think it's unavoidable that users who use biblatex specific commands
> loose that to a certain degree. Fallback mappings should be added, of
> course, but they will only get you so far. We should probably indicate
> which commands work in all packages so users can make their decisions
> consciously.

Yes, it seems highly likely that some of biblatex just won't fully
work in other formats.

But ideally we'd limit that.

Bruce