From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id cHtgCfhuz2DphgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 18:38:16 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id AL/XBPhuz2D/FgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:38:16 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44F2DEBDA for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 18:38:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:57526 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lv0Sc-0003BA-3e for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:38:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:32834) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lv0SF-0003Am-LA for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:37:51 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::329]:34362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lv0SC-0003Ya-SC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:37:50 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x329.google.com with SMTP id u5-20020a7bc0450000b02901480e40338bso8682052wmc.1 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:37:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/0A/QkQOHvGAQPmxagotxf7FNWRlr4TgOdvRrlnjBJQ=; b=I0pAbrv/HxlGTBNkpdtELevCtJTc1uY7Nr8j7vh227+N1JgEwXScvI63beWe+I7kX8 g77Fi/jop44UsSHfoUqm2OoGvBhS/UDwlws4nRoqgepIQN5lbv0j+z7TmW0v3hAHDTiY Qr1XR6UYi3nyX8wYM9Lt2htU2/t3z1M5mPht2ZFgOVmYf6p5rid3bvGwARvEn3qquNLL b+h73avF3oikMbmwasReKNlCkbPx7j9qiZgoW+N7AYplV0f7tWHa9k6GMXrgZOu1P02m bc16majfRJ2ernkoBln7gGmo5AB4FoBsrleycu7ZtO6sEl5VhoKNxrGHzAIkM8CNt4Dc LMyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/0A/QkQOHvGAQPmxagotxf7FNWRlr4TgOdvRrlnjBJQ=; b=N+iCArpaMI5ybU+2fT6sArN3rlqdxGe7N+zCyfl8HTjyz20maXE6JoRahnx3Xc9W1w Mj8FZOj94Yqmf/Lw7Xi/IflKuJaY5biLUKSuJevTPrqhuoJGOH0EZwacEsf8Fhlcs3JE jsOOu6BvjQ7yf9JFYq88Jo0riiSRqCwRkFYyCVrFd9iAvenklyZVaEmhVQF3g5HZbKVj 33ZqGtG1/yyUokveH6OdKNZzI8ZrLwTUtoSMEFoPxfYXcpvdc3RjKCb6NL467G7X8QvO f4JpsVZygEFleBoaNsO8G5GFYZ+YnRYQGFFIpQjY3wSRDUvTECWP2Oe+Rws9WDbUqKrg UL7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306bYOr5yImww8HRK/Ue+joTiVf/Stwm+RXimND1Rr62f8jnmFh 4pe7WEAgZZO9k1g2dH/sSRD9Gsyp5PIMEu5bOdX2uh9c2Z2pNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2Fzqua9V6lCeClMS2Aq/a80uJoabzB+kb0trzPrkxwmvQxrhIubpq8+A4+kr9+0sqhnzyr/EOUVgbIxSZuzk= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c3c6:: with SMTP id t6mr21842243wmj.66.1624207066373; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:37:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <871raawc7j.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <4dd47d8d-5dd8-4769-7e2f-eb3438ba0b4a@mailbox.org> <87sg2orz0z.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <81051f87-a90e-56ed-7867-d6179ec1e9ad@mailbox.org> <139ff81d-4af6-1e75-f4c9-416032fc514f@mailbox.org> <87h7icatav.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <952cbae3-496c-acea-4ff1-beb9c3306979@mailbox.org> <87zgvvtoay.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <535c4059-e019-0970-afea-efed82b003ac@mailbox.org> <2009852882.89167.1623622988878@office.mailbox.org> <48377c85-5891-3658-d35b-cba1358878a8@mailbox.org> <87v969htj9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <87v969htj9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:37:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations To: Org Mode List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::329; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x329.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1624207095; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/0A/QkQOHvGAQPmxagotxf7FNWRlr4TgOdvRrlnjBJQ=; b=PLvg55fRWs9OR8eAxzE1i8M2DJS0Qk++QrUHDNigLuoT9NqRlvNgls+q90gXZM+3MPFVMI 0SM64zPovLMLqNFQvrL0rAj4COaiGXJBRMa3EwItLxgzUK1DIOIaSvzNTIOH6HMlAFt97Y MHSwaoL241IOnoctlD3eSzgjb9KPyJWUOT/ZCU0r5ftkFFjLiuFuvEaeD42OPiThV1/d16 OeaV13049TKAbZ2FNvy1AspLaDFeAyKBOBi3oA0Q3JUwJAl1imk+TgSBOd3fUw7lF9w7+Y gl8TeeS5jM0H2jbnwUVY7JIpgBzwAazvMPU/svnmW8iEtNPZ9H34f4H8Ht55+Q== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1624207095; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=O5zRgBo8Qu32kv5wbtRC5rUxjqddNrnw4JupqMTRBq2Y91kF1PDKdBwPoxuPxtNF3sySSY ucau/VXlZsLtkC5Stpx7POyLdP8eWbjZYmf5I5QHPiB73vpIE98S+3y21PWxulQ8s5nQL8 idzIvehPMOZguWVWjlbhTy7TMTre2+AWOHKCKAeRfzpfrjIDFjhb1mDqRxMNhh8dEFdqcQ GFYwlXMJOHq0AioSI3w2K3g9D2vX2WypT9Tq0/2QD2Yg+MpdMYIBXF54o0PcvZiVvLTHh1 d8EmUL9nmzp7M/w1JMaH9Ub33KFtXFwmy9iyE96roudJNVn4ZoK3dqgc/6iiaQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="I0pAbrv/"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="I0pAbrv/"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 44F2DEBDA X-Spam-Score: -3.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 9FcQooNyu53W On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 3:41 AM Nicolas Goaziou wr= ote: ... > > The example you are highlighlighting here was why I was earlier > > suggesting for a rule that would allow something like this input: > > > > "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > > > ... where the second would be dropped, hence getting the expected outpu= t. > > This is interesting, but we might get false positives, as in the > following (far-fetched) example > > =E2=80=A6 the so-called "foobar". [cite/text: See @hoel-71-whole p. 42]= . > > which bites us because we need to process even non-note citations to > remove the spurious punctuation while ignoring the necessity of a given > punctuation character. Yeah, I wasn't sure of the details. > As another, imperfect, workaround, I submit the following idea for > consideration: > > "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines, > according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside > the quotation. When processing non-note citations, we just need to > ensure there is at least a space after the previous element, which is > less "dangerous" than removing punctuation. > > I find it a bit too subtle, and so error-prone, but so is punctuation > anyway. > > WDYT? Just to confirm, Nicolas, your proposal would basically say the second example would override the default punctuation-moving behavior for the locale? And for an in-text/author-date style, what would the output be with that example? I, someone who may have an "en-US" bias you could say, would expect: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel, 1971). As in, the in-quote period would be dropped regardless, and therefore a space would also need to be added. Is that right Denis? It wouldn't make sense to do any of these; right? "A quotation ending with a period." (Hoel, 1971). "A quotation ending with a period." (Hoel, 1971) "A quotation ending with a period"(Hoel, 1971). etc. Bruce