From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id +KJuFKpirF7YLwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 01 May 2020 17:55:54 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id ELMLHbNirF7JbwAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 01 May 2020 17:56:03 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [IPv6:2001:470:142::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D5F4941B7D for ; Fri, 1 May 2020 17:56:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:37002 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZtK-0001JW-Iv for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:56:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44072) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZsI-0000Sr-SU for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:54:59 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZsH-0002Hn-6y for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:54:58 -0400 Received: from mail-ua1-x930.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::930]:40241) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZsG-0002GS-QJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:54:56 -0400 Received: by mail-ua1-x930.google.com with SMTP id r2so2182613uam.7 for ; Fri, 01 May 2020 10:54:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cOU2lFw6fKUx8ETIvSAnA60uUAc8z4nRAmQa9H0r3gs=; b=bvtD5lJhA+2R9rZxG5BDzM74LEWDbaU+J1+yBwowMznkpQHfBaV5z1vw29BjoOFs/8 gVbC4eCAeHIiCkBR3mYfRpKaSwnY7arlZxzLO4rq+aCtg8e5703ICf4f/FvHnqPT4Irr 11MbzACyuiw1FStUaN5x3cx3eiy72ni3EuK4pwue1HpsyNCzPZtXvlUQ3BcfAW67Kgln yIFr0dhoA2KI0rxpO8IJakSxIzdg3W7+UfznQswbBQdQQOQqYjDNT/UHNzCfVV9AGfhA hldq6KivRErQR7W0pVLkzuvfHcvyU2L5dJ+2OgaPWYPa3jysf3VlciH/DnBHMGb8Ofoa FY9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cOU2lFw6fKUx8ETIvSAnA60uUAc8z4nRAmQa9H0r3gs=; b=Qx7jbCwJ1VrBorTA74ZvcTD/4Jsr4FDF+AI9mhhS1REQtt95pyCgMbkmbSwNDFSAt4 tkIAQaQCbuhp1U9fn+xe8/HFiHv6PsGJGg9WqIYVV8YkxIiODbLAa11pZgEp2jga2p5Y +ow2XegNEekKoEU8lf1IXDACy9Zl2u+0ZRmRdKWLh0o/by/Sr8T/3d9fMKtATkcZ9++y ghfcBADYw99cGtuz1X6LEgIEjTwYd6CkpdEc/8c2Q917J9bKY6EvMuKpZcsxGHxLL9cy xvJKd6Ux4yYoWBRM5KNrlOJKDCO9Pvz8Mv00MdyOe0j4DXSo5qkPi5bq67cJ06dp25aT 3QXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYaA/0mqRcen8iSIpnlcY7Nvj7PUX9uoctpXejMqAcoceabz3sK kEZTlh34sPDW6+0geIT4+fdtaJosPb+/MxaxyPE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIOgEK6JyqKk/XGHNhdiA0bTtFNsPEB/LKfsf7Gu0ZTkUg2+PLUCp7qBZq46CfmgbaiFdazVtkF98MKzuzslTQ= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:539b:: with SMTP id k27mr4045021uaa.50.1588355695153; Fri, 01 May 2020 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <777184861.71192.1586510991834@office.mailbox.org> <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1016821769.78551.1586641375789@office.mailbox.org> <87h7xp0z1y.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874kto245n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sgh8zpmg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1084456979.81820.1586724551265@office.mailbox.org> <877dykz6ri.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r1wrwvam.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87wo6hfg4k.fsf@aquinas> <87v9lx6ju6.fsf@aquinas> <87r1wj7scc.fsf@aquinas> <87lfmjzgeq.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87h7x7z62q.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87k11v5zdn.fsf@aquinas> In-Reply-To: <87k11v5zdn.fsf@aquinas> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 13:54:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback To: Richard Lawrence Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::930; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-ua1-x930.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::930 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: org-mode-email , John Kitchin Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: -0.21 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=bvtD5lJh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 2001:470:142::17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [-0.21 / 13.00]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.49526624119413]; MX_INVALID(1.00)[cached]; DWL_DNSWL_FAIL(0.00)[2001:470:142::17:server fail,gmail.com:server fail]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:142::/48:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.16), country: US(-0.00), ip: 2001:470:142::17(-0.50)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:2001:470:142::/48, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bdarcus@gmail.com,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; URIBL_BLOCKED(0.00)[uni-tuebingen.de:email]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[emacs-orgmode@gnu.org]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; DNSWL_BLOCKED(0.00)[2001:470:142::17:from]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: SKBoKBXgV92b On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:38 PM Richard Lawrence wrote: > > "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > > >> > My understanding, though, is that org "cite" would default to your > >> > last example I quote above (in natibib, citep); that there's no need > >> > for a dedicated "cite/paren" command, either reserved or not. > >> > >> Not necessarily. "cite" means default value, whatever that is. It could, > >> for example, mean: "cite/text" for every citation, if that is what you > >> use the most. In that case, "cite/paren" is necessary, to override it > >> locally. It could also be, e.g., "cite/footnote", then both "cite/text" > >> and "cite/paren" could be of some use. That was suggested by Richard > >> Lawrence in this thread, if my memory serves me right. > >> > >> Does that make sense? > > > > I think so. I'll defer to Richard on this, since he was making this point. > > Sorry to take so long to reply. The point I made earlier was that, as > far as I understand, the choice of CSL stylesheet is the main factor > determining how a given citation gets rendered into the output (assuming > you process citations with CSL). So yes, it makes sense to have "cite" > mean default value as determined by the choice of stylesheet. I was trying to not assume CSL in this discussion, but certainly that's how I was thinking. > I've been skimming the CSL documentation, and I'm realizing that I > actually don't have a very good understanding of how these different > types of commands would be represented at the level of a CSL processor. Yes, because it's currently silent on this issue. In part because of this conversation, we've decided to add a section that deals with this in the context of a generic API. > Bruce, is it possible to have a CSL stylesheet that would be able to > accommodate both e.g. "cite/paren" and "cite/footnote" in the same > document? No. We could extend CSL to do that, but I don't actually recall ever getting that request. > Can a stylesheet support an arbitrary numbers of different > citation types like this, and can a CSL processor choose among those > types based on their *names*? CSL currently has a single citation template, so effectively one system, defined in that style file. CSL is silent on the rest, since we wanted to see how the ecosystem evolved to respond to user needs. We left it up to the implementers on how to address integrating. But per above, we have enough information at this point to make the silent explicit. Based on that, what we have seen is what I've described here: two core commands (cite and suppress-author), and now a third iteration of that which we will add explicitly to the spec and schema in the next release: the equivalent of citet. This turns out relatively simple to implement by building on existing CSL concepts, where output becomes, for example, "[author-only] " + "([suppress-author])". This is already supported in CSL, but we will add a new "intext" element to allow one to define the author-only rendering for styles (like APA) where the output is different than it is in the citation. So to sum up, I expect we will explicitly define three commands: default (the one defined in the citation template of the style), suppress-author (which need not be explicitly defined in the style, since the processor knows how to achieve this), and cite-text. > If so, then I think Nicolas' proposal to have "cite" mean default and > make non-default citations available as "cite/xxx" makes sense > (especially with the other syntax supporting suppress-author, etc.). > > If not, then the "cite/xxx" syntax makes less sense to me; it just sort > of looks like a different way of writing BibLaTeX commands, and will be > hard to support when LaTeX is not the output format. I would be hesitant > in that case to make "cite/xxx" the standard way to express "this > citation should be rendered in manner xxx, instead of the default". > > Best, > Richard