Valid use cases for lists?

Valid use cases for lists?

[Chris Patti]

Can anyone give me an example of when it's a good idea to use lists
rather than headlines?

They feel rather like a violation of the principle of least surprise
to me, because when you use them, and then try to use pretty much any
other Org feature on them (marking them as a TODO item, tagging, etc.)
it doesn't work because lists aren't meant to be used that way.

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious here, and that's why I'm asking.

Thanks in advance!
-Chris

-- 
Christopher Patti - Geek At Large | GTalk: cpatti@gmail.com | AIM:
chrisfeohpatti | P: (260) 54PATTI
"Technology challenges art, art inspires technology." - John Lasseter, Pixar

Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Rasmus]

Chris Patti <cpatti@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious here, and that's why I'm asking.

Export.  List are used everywhere.

-- 
The right to be left alone is a human right

Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Mike McLean]

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On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Chris Patti <cpatti@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious here, and that's why I'm
> asking.
>
> Export.  List are used everywhere.
>

I also use them for “simple” projects. I have a set of Task TODO keywords
for one-off tasks. I have a set of Project TODO keywords for projects.
Typically a project is a heading with a Project keyword and a number of
(level + 1) headings with Task keywords. For projects that span several
days/weeks this works well.

Some things that I do fall between Project and Task in the complexity. The
items needs 1-2 things done and discrete and different points in time
(temporal dependency, first A then B) or with different co workers
(collaboration) or both. The overall work, however, will only take 0-2
days. It's too big for a single task. It's too small for a Project. It's
related items that conceptually belong together. In Goldilocks fashion, a
check-box list is just the right size.

#+begin_example
** TODO Medium Sized “project” [1/3]
- [X] Get information from John
- [ ] Process information and send to Mary for review
- [ ] Finalize and submit final to Joe (based on Mary’s comments and
changes)
#+end_example

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Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Peter Salazar]

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Export isn't a good reason to use lists over headings, since you can always
export headings as <li> lists if you want to, e.g. by setting number of
heading levels in export options. This doesn't mean plain text lists aren't
useful in org, it just means you don't need them to get lists in your
export format.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Chris Patti <cpatti@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious here, and that's why I'm
> asking.
>
> Export.  List are used everywhere.
>
> --
> The right to be left alone is a human right
>
>
>

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Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Rasmus]

Peter Salazar <cycleofsong@gmail.com> writes:

> Export isn't a good reason to use lists over headings, since you can always
> export headings as <li> lists if you want to, e.g. by setting number of
> heading levels in export options. This doesn't mean plain text lists aren't
> useful in org, it just means you don't need them to get lists in your
> export format.

Semantically, lists are nicer.

Compare this is your org file.

* A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines

  - A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very
    long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long
    item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item
    which you'd like to split over several lines


Which one do you prefer?


-- 
With monopolies the cake is a lie!

Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Peter Salazar]

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Agreed, plain-text lists are definitely preferable!

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Peter Salazar <cycleofsong@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Export isn't a good reason to use lists over headings, since you can
> always
> > export headings as <li> lists if you want to, e.g. by setting number of
> > heading levels in export options. This doesn't mean plain text lists
> aren't
> > useful in org, it just means you don't need them to get lists in your
> > export format.
>
> Semantically, lists are nicer.
>
> Compare this is your org file.
>
> * A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very
> long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item
> which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item which you'd
> like to split over several lines
>
>   - A very long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very
>     long item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long
>     item which you'd like to split over several lines A very long item
>     which you'd like to split over several lines
>
>
> Which one do you prefer?
>
>
> --
> With monopolies the cake is a lie!
>
>
>

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Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Kyle Meyer]

Chris Patti <cpatti@gmail.com> writes:

> Can anyone give me an example of when it's a good idea to use lists
> rather than headlines?

I think there are quite a few, but here's one example.  I keep a heading
with a list of links to potentially interesting articles that I don't
have time to process at the moment when I encounter them.  I capture new
links (with no description) as items under this heading.  I don't want
to use a separate heading for each link because I don't want to think
about a name to give the heading.  I just want a list of links where I
can check off items when I get around to visiting them.

> They feel rather like a violation of the principle of least surprise
> to me, because when you use them, and then try to use pretty much any
> other Org feature on them (marking them as a TODO item, tagging, etc.)
> it doesn't work because lists aren't meant to be used that way.

That is pretty much how I decide.  If I think I need heading-specific
features, I use headings.

--
Kyle

Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Florian Beck]

> Can anyone give me an example of when it's a good idea to use lists
> rather than headlines?

Headlines often are too heavy for my taste. My reading notes as well as
my notes for writing usually do not have a title. (You might think it good
practice to come up with a title, but my experiments tell me otherwise.)
Headlines are too noisy, both on screen and when exporting.

> when you use them, and then try to use pretty much any
> other Org feature on them (marking them as a TODO item, tagging, etc.)
> it doesn't work because lists aren't meant to be used that way.

True, but there are ways around that:

 - Instead of tagging, write the keywords after the item (use custom
 links or hooks to supress exporting)
 - Use visual-line-mode and search with multi occur.
 - use =#+TODO:= instead of todo keywords (and use multi occur).
 - To uniquely id items, add timestamps (and use multi occur).
 - Write a function to refile items (my hack is a bit idiosyncratic so I
 don't share it here, but it should be pretty straighforward using
 =(org-refile t)= to get the location).

-- 
Florian Beck

Re: Valid use cases for lists?

[Matt Lundin]

Chris Patti <cpatti@gmail.com> writes:

> Can anyone give me an example of when it's a good idea to use lists
> rather than headlines?
>
> They feel rather like a violation of the principle of least surprise
> to me, because when you use them, and then try to use pretty much any
> other Org feature on them (marking them as a TODO item, tagging, etc.)
> it doesn't work because lists aren't meant to be used that way.

> I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious here, and that's why I'm asking.

Lists are lists. Headlines are headlines. If you need something to show
up in an agenda view, use a headline. 

From the perspective of document structure, headlines vs. lists
corresponds with section headings vs. lists in Markdown:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown#Example

I find lists to be a good means quickly to organize and reorganize items
within an entry. I use them for brainstorming, for making grocery lists,
for itemizing ingredients in recipes, for documenting what I did on a
task, etc.

Though you can't tag them or add todos to them, you can use checkboxes
to track your progress on items in a list.

 - http://orgmode.org/manual/Checkboxes.html#Checkboxes

Lists also play an important role in export. E.g., this list...

 - apples
   - Fuji
   - Red Delicious
 - bananas
 - pears

Exports to html as...

<ul class="org-ul">
<li>apples
<ul class="org-ul">
<li>Fuji</li>
<li>Red Delicious</li>
</ul></li>
<li>bananas</li>
<li>pears</li>
</ul>

Matt