From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id eH3pJeYAq2JCHgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 12:07:34 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id UGbnJeYAq2IF1wAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 12:07:34 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5123D9825 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 12:07:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52228 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1mPU-0006JO-RB for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 06:07:32 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36424) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1mNR-0006Fz-90 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 06:05:25 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]:33307) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1mNP-0005rs-L9 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 06:05:25 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id v81so1398006ybe.0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 03:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DGdSYV27uQly7DyqFlC41xDsPPmnY7yGnSKRZhAf7J4=; b=aretYV8m51ap/y5TC/FigDyWSfwuIlTdnfqTyVdmCW6GKya4V8XDs2PW7A/rzcRsKq rSRuD/1t7kvzsh//rNB9p78s9iXfUritFjjWXnxw0aFMT4bxeZeshakE4DPXTED43G0E flTB+GE12j4PqGAKePZK+1y5Np49frGnXiW8OQkFZMkYQNJy4x4hoUfFvCeyi8QVX4A4 a4Zu61LdspA6oUrSDO7JoxGPOPY/0rydXZ1TujjB8gDD30U4jSl0T0wpUsQZtGiCXjCd hs5ri0r7vHsowYkrmOcD/BczSh8LBe0uHPjg1g0gMsTYtkx/PRh7XV0q0P+6uomBew7O 6wGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DGdSYV27uQly7DyqFlC41xDsPPmnY7yGnSKRZhAf7J4=; b=pZRw4RUz96k66bY8dT4/twEh5VCnk6iJ8yY6jGolDwYYY2pJMQC5u7ftxAfnfbXOmM XFb/jVtWrh+x9+aRPvYifHR0VgrjekpR9UE1kclCMkq+rEwfs84z36MFaR9nrzUb6c6x DYrpYwpnbw4qHsJfuhToQBWnApTB2Un+ONp27WGKA0jfdAQxZtoLALpSUNlOjA6Vj/hw YnGnriDM5sqTZ3KFNC9W3VVPC/nWw8qSh187YJFCK2Fexeq76C4VL6VuEOcdWFj8+dcy hUxutN+EY6a1WRMXTBKyhrPqkoHIwYfzeAC1eErfAC13oxq/zdFy9kPZjI/Sg/wF1LKS +LaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora83/4NujfEQ48cquOmELOXV21EJvd9+InV3qOsLBju12qkG4GYd aQWe8uGg1cJQetrIm8yUW6L1RdgjeVKA/ZeqsxWnVp8V7M8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1tZJ96Ukw01J0oZ2nA4r/ra7GPMqVBiVSPcsgHDzj+JpAHnLAcS2w4ge7xqHK3KluiREOE8TrAth0+NXj0twas= X-Received: by 2002:a25:6b47:0:b0:65c:baf6:3924 with SMTP id o7-20020a256b47000000b0065cbaf63924mr4267187ybm.485.1655373922523; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 03:05:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87r140yuof.fsf@gmail.com> <875yl9e7zm.fsf@gmail.com> <83czfh12kp.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmjhghu2.fsf@localhost> <835yl910gp.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndndbhq.fsf@gmail.com> <83bkuzznws.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5mqmkh.fsf@localhost> <87czfcm5w9.fsf@localhost> <87h74mv56b.fsf@localhost> In-Reply-To: <87h74mv56b.fsf@localhost> From: Tom Gillespie Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 03:05:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Tim Cross , emacs-orgmode Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32; envelope-from=tgbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb32.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655374054; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=DGdSYV27uQly7DyqFlC41xDsPPmnY7yGnSKRZhAf7J4=; b=b2HWU/VnbMWWlC8Z0E6p7WVv5C+VwTNBWPfQKS4sCv5IBYpuwTQPKCngdBiSEKBa7lnhpb AfeTaEQ/MrN/OJ8eSjIeoppLZvDeRjfUuCom4YLq1i1XDPCw7nt1h18Ec4gVC/GLzcHthk 83hdYJbxDUHY1lzs0Z+dney3p3+OP7CwVkyDIv5R02YMFGYDFXcgQpz0cN3oZkZZjrnVtb lZ2zZZGra793F6EDYaQAbgaErWHTCaoNAsV+pUovK704RziqHR9UDlvhOV3ht8qW82m8g/ 4QboLyQV0k/FeHUATslPSVNqCA+LQEgh+aswUodojseCYNClPskyPicx9xQMTg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655374054; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=t71a5gIw5dF5nss0Zl35KECDvrj3iiphcEb0igawp5dFaAPjtoPfwsJvuFVafGweeV3699 J4OlIzuK9JgQbkhPJXTZJOj94IuL5LWstjng7i2S+JzATTI0W3Hgpr9y3oIUW+2PHQfti2 M4o/pFJibiY+z2QpJpatUR1frfMPbaBsmxEjKuW5i4I/ifYDKm+oSj4rGoJMPEaJfCspAr mm3wuW6ynNoefJko+doYwX1ZhIzsV4PEaakkzFLTGFnmBAEZK/gMra7vm0Hvj5VsGr8BNZ NTBO1hjade9nwINfb7lCs5GWnQUGWnh2NGIO/zca4xYHiMPuSC9v4zabwJcodQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=aretYV8m; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.99 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=aretYV8m; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5123D9825 X-Spam-Score: -3.99 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: wCcK3eYMyi7c Having read the whole thread now: oof. Thank you Ihor for shepherding that and for the performance improvements! With regard to the key-bindings straw man. I guess I'm a bit of an outsider on this one, because I started writing org documents by just typing them in and only over time learning some of the bindings. Maybe having an org-markup-mode or something like that would be a way to provide a sandbox for the +recalcitrants+ newcomers? It might also be a nice way to a/b test them on whether the Emacs editing commands really are as good as they think they are (said the evil-mode user). With regard to ... everything else. I guess at this point it is unsurprising that (for lack of a better term) the uninitiated in the dark corners of org syntax frequently think that syntactic extensions are advisable, skipping over the consideration of possible. Given the opportunities that seem to be lurking in the thread, it seems like it would be good to have some examples of how the e.g. texinfo semantic markup could (or could not) be implemented using existing org syntax. The suggestion to use custom link types seems very practical. It requires no new syntax, and is basically fully extensible for semantic markup needs. I say this having recently spent time reworking the paragraph grammar and the lexer needed to enable it in laundry for the 3rd (or is it 4th?) time. Say it with me: No new syntactic forms! We have more than enough syntax to enable all the extensibility that pretty much anyone will ever need (we just have to document how to use it). In-document extensibility of link types might be possible if we get my regularized keyword syntax implemented, if that were done then all the configuration could in-principle live in a setup file (I have a response on the syntax thread drafted, will try to get back to it). Nesting markup inside code or verbatim seems more difficult because they are intentionally terminal. I am also unfamiliar with texinfo so will be of no help with the examples, but I do look forward to them. Best! Tom