From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id MMMuC6lve2CRlwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 01:30:49 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id wHxFBalve2BWSwAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 23:30:49 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C68BAF545 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 01:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:38550 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lXuOj-0002Z0-4N for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:30:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37274) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lXuNi-0002Xd-5b for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:29:42 -0400 Received: from gateway31.websitewelcome.com ([192.185.144.96]:14715) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lXuNf-0004Cf-Qs for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:29:41 -0400 Received: from cm17.websitewelcome.com (cm17.websitewelcome.com [100.42.49.20]) by gateway31.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CE1146E2 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 18:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from box2035.bluehost.com ([74.220.219.237]) by cmsmtp with SMTP id XuNRlNNyTMGeEXuNSlnjMc; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 18:29:26 -0500 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tsdye.online; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: In-reply-to:Subject:To:From:References:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=W0u78U8kLEPbak+Wm14ntHXXVJc/4rNWz4yst7frnhQ=; b=exTzpeD7mcTPluy7HI5MX2vLa FIzJ+WaTrm7GSM1amky2FaZMTJuwHccPERa+JG5rHQC/s2wGJxGl4cQ9jTrRPUiI6yLvOK3JV6CaO XzOhyUn+kwbHkaTj3qo+p6EtDhTCER6+ztPY/B0DYpHeq4RjeDlQHtLS6xTMbeLwKRLBrIKmkPGHS N1uBpuC7WrgpeELJ0IV4FF9eQ+NHzf07eY37MU5sE9INJEScA/bVRQP4qHyKXMUf/ED/O36nSaNPW bLk3xiEOPSfMyn12FCai/Trb+FuMyL3Wd9F5xPpNbQxq+9X8SuOxbSQgL/3agzKmQjbl81tj/A5ma JzGB0+5oQ==; Received: from cpe-50-113-36-248.hawaii.res.rr.com ([50.113.36.248]:57870 helo=poto-foou.tsdye.online) by box2035.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94) (envelope-from ) id 1lXuNR-001a6N-Iy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:29:25 -0600 References: <87pmyuyssi.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.3 From: "Thomas S. Dye" To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concerns about community contributor support In-reply-to: <87pmyuyssi.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:29:23 -1000 Message-ID: <87y2dg4hik.fsf@tsdye.online> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box2035.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tsdye.online X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 50.113.36.248 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1lXuNR-001a6N-Iy X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: cpe-50-113-36-248.hawaii.res.rr.com (poto-foou.tsdye.online) [50.113.36.248]:57870 X-Source-Auth: tsd@tsdye.online X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: dHNkeWVvbmw7dHNkeWVvbmw7Ym94MjAzNS5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: pass client-ip=192.185.144.96; envelope-from=tsd@tsdye.online; helo=gateway31.websitewelcome.com X-Spam_score_int: 4 X-Spam_score: 0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.5, PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1618702248; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=W0u78U8kLEPbak+Wm14ntHXXVJc/4rNWz4yst7frnhQ=; b=c/efhoBLIquI4Ojt4BML/Z3celp/2GYbeBOqewI1b7sYlJiPvoVjQp8nkN5QYWlnGcstR4 bvhyMGzsUILKOoMCbXqI8VvigMj8jNU26s4bSVir98uSmNoJeQI2MMB5IrHdSacHh7qNNf nSNk7NiaGkC95QL9DZ+JRfB8xwU/OB5ImyDJ6h20zGC4iom5lRqCRcvAQQ1+dC9uQISrxC q1yj4uENIrWmMydHAy11swyppbZHKOcwJ/yB3ip+dvWwXQJlDpVyt+f4ssrtWqKdjZ//4g VrqSUotBezlOiPuqm8ar5UqKSsxGDoeEiGWuDcHMkvOzVh4dUD4qZzavIQmYiA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1618702248; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=QNlEqN7pQ+YjiBYe2GJck/uXcz/7mWpP6MAK4rmS9NbU6EIbnGOMRWBzdoUdvGF0WnGZOW cBKLS3HiTDDBne6QoHYa1EghdYE0EgaJsjflZx9n5QmqUk6Erix1Le9UdD/WkQRAVetJgL wxOqEL1P7tP/X3wSzO5v7C3j6iQwbSRGX6SDfZehH5ZnwlXY/NNmcrrUnQT3/GXGUI/o9n YsURKF0pif9FXLPl+E/vlYk3c42AE0mjGClopgfmCTSD8M1rW1pYxzShzOywYRMPKtCFDu s4BNqWKBXPiwxqsMuB+PIJMw26mcIjXSt+vsEjstYPc9AZJqawYtF/Tl0Fb99A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=exTzpeD7; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=exTzpeD7; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C68BAF545 X-Spam-Score: -1.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: TNSnCs7VI5WO Aloha Timothy, As a long-time follower of this list and a devoted, if often ignorant or confused, user of Org mode, I'd like to give my perspective on your concerns, which I find genuine and IMHO intended to further the Org mode project. I was drawn to Org mode when Eric Schulte and Dan Davison were implementing Org babel. At the time, I had dabbled in literate programming and was using reproducible research practices in my work, so the babel project made sense to me and I was thrilled to find a couple of terrific programmers working on what to my mind was a beautiful implementation of these ideas. I knew about Carsten Dominik from his work with RefTeX, which I also used in my work, but got to know him better as the creator and maintainer of Org mode. My impression of Carsten was an indefatigable worker whose vision of what Org mode might be kept growing as the user base expanded and diversified. The mailing list was a different place back then, less technical and open to more noise than it is today. It was a place that understood the importance of kindness for a collaboration of volunteers. I think the list has done an admirable job of maintaining the ethos of kindness, but Org mode development is in a new phase that *requires* technique and is quicker to identify and filter out noise. When Bastien took over as maintainer after Carsten exhausted himself working on Org mode (my interpretation), Nicolas Goaziou took over most of the coding work. His brief was clearly to put the Org mode code into better order, which he did with astonishing efficiency and expertise (at least from my often ignorant and confused perspective). His work on the syntax, exporter, linter, and manual represents IMHO an outstanding contribution to Org mode. I'm sure there are other important contributions that I'm not remembering right now. My point is that the project changed from one that was expanding its own vision of what it might be to one that was working to ensure that it wouldn't collapse from its own weight. Kyle Meyer is the next step in this direction, whose efforts have helped tame the discussions on the Org mode list with a remarkable facility for threading together the various strands of discussion, some of which have histories that comprise several years. Combined with a command of git, his work has brought the discussion into closer contact with the development of the code base. These changes mean that contributions need to be checked for contributions to Nicolas' project and also fit into the history of discussion and development. The Org mode project now resembles a scholarly discipline that moves slowly and deliberately toward a more or less well defined goal. The days when Carsten would bang out a new feature during his train ride home from work are gone. Bastien did recently call for maintainers, though IIRC he was interested in ox-* and ob-* maintainers more than org-* maintainers. If enough good programmers heed his call, then there might be some progress on the concerns you raise. But, my sense is that patches to Org mode proper will continue to be adopted slowly and deliberately. It would be a shame if that pace put off talented programmers, but my sense FWIW is that the pace might be necessary until the code base is fully tamed. All the best, Tom Timothy writes: > Dear all, > > Over the last few months I have felt an increasing level of > concern over > the lack of response to patches. This email is rather long, but > please, > bear with me. The goal is to start a discussion on the problems > this > creates, and consider short and long-term solutions. > > When both community and maintainer response to new patches is > lacking, > many first-time contributors are actively dissuaded from > contributing > again. Furthermore, each patch represents a considerable time > investment > --- particularly if it's from an individual who is new to the > mailing > list / patch workflow. Org-mode is not "done" and still requires > the > support of long-term contributors to keep improving, anything > that > discourages them from contributing back to the community needs > to be > carefully understood and resolved if we want to continue > harmoniously. > > Take for example Jay Bosamiya's patch from September last year > [1]. It > appears to be his first submission to this mailing list, and yet > there > has been absolutely no response to it. There are currently 24 > other > patches listed on the updates.orgmode.org which have seen no > response > from this community, some of which are from first-time > contributors. > There are 36 other patches with at least two replies, but yet to > be > resolved. Bastien's updates.orgmode.org is fantastic in helping > prevent > contributions slip through the cracks, but it is also > highlighting the > lack of community response to a significant number of patches. > > This mailing list was my first experience with an email+patch > based > contribution workflow. Thankfully, I received prompt and > friendly > feedback and was guided through the adjustments needed so it > could be > merged in a timely manner. Should my patch have been similarly > ignored, > I would have been quite disheartened; it is not an overstatement > to say > I would likely have written off this mailing list and not tried > again. > > Simply put, this is not good enough. This does a disservice to > those > that have dedicated time and effort to try and better this > project only > to be ignored. Not rejected, not even acknowledged, nothing. > > It is imperative that this community improves our response to > contributions for the long-term health of this project. Do not > take me > to be a doomsayer; I have faith that Org is going to keep on > improving > regardless. However, failing to welcome and encourage > contributors has a > deleterious effect on the health of the project. > > I do not blame the maintainers in the slightest. As Bastien > brought up > in a recent worg discussion, as time goes on we find ourselves > taking on > more and more life responsibilities. Therefore it's in our best > interest > to delegate some of the maintainer responsibilities to > consistently > active, and supportive community members to "pass down the > torch" so the > community and platform can continue to expand with grace and > care. > > What can the community do? > > I don't know of any silver bullet, but I believe there are some > steps > which could help, namely: > + The development and publication of "reasonable expectations" > which > contributors should have when submitting a patch, and that the > maintainers should strive to uphold (e.g. "expect a response > within > "). > + A community effort/sprint to respond to those patches that > have been > seemingly abandoned > + Onboarding of new maintainers, when reasonable and suitable > candidates > exist (I'd very willingly throw my hat in the ring for > consideration). > If it's too much work, spread it out as much as possible. > > If any other ideas come to mind, please share them so we can > discuss > them further. > > Finally, it's not all bad. > > While this discussion has called for some criticism, I don't > want to > give the false impression that I think nothing is working and > nobody is > supporting contributors. This is not the case at all, there are > some > standout individuals one the mailing list who have been > fantastic. Kudos > to you all. > > My best to everyone, > > Timothy > > [1] > https://orgmode.org/list/CAOywxZg1cBL07THLZXHBBCzm6te2vMtqnmM0w63331gybrjZuw@mail.gmail.com/ > [2] https://orgmode.org/list/87h7qi2l2m.fsf@gmail.com/ -- Thomas S. Dye https://tsdye.online/tsdye