From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id qIW4CmzNml6GcgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:50:36 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id mH8aGXDNml5VRAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:50:40 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DACDD941F66 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:50:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56300 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPk7S-0006RF-Nx for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:50:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36099) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jOb0U-0005ac-IZ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:54:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jOb0T-0003Xi-AV for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:54:42 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:45391) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jOb0S-0003Wc-W2 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:54:41 -0400 Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59155FD; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:54:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ZuFvIw hRy99DKQ78JEquSQedwqPiO40rNGCbKb9geTI=; b=2SPZPAbyhoBa+6aSCbre2m VG1IoR520woZgVK3ovmROy8t+3jMP+/k7Xd6J7vFumq2SsE5AxLvUFsIy+/sVZgT ATZ3tp9QFUs/hElP9lzfdqNWOT+z6IYn6pRKczRAkEtCXh3KfgwBwYax0uOV1H86 i+8HZT4SDGtorugYxxtnQTn7cAnXoDbyDvMO04VA0MrNoX09Tc29MRXXG+2yI071 AcRiE4PmOqV3ojEPmYUB/rHekRp1QPpLAc3zq9+1SI6VQFXn6j5tXb9FomjFGCzE 8fxBvArlsWlD40+s2T/hStF1VRhauof0+zxnK/hfzm/eriu/6Rksk91gSR/ZeyxQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrfedvgdellecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefhvffujghffffkgggtsehttdertddttddtnecuhfhrohhmpeftihgthhgrrhgu ucfnrgifrhgvnhgtvgcuoehrihgthhgrrhgurdhlrgifrhgvnhgtvgesuhhnihdqthhuvg gsihhnghgvnhdruggvqeenucfkphepjeekrdegfedrgedtrddtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprhiflhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrd gtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from aquinas (unknown [78.43.40.0]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2C9B3306005F; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwl by aquinas with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jOb0N-0001VY-9s; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:54:35 +0200 From: Richard Lawrence To: Joost Kremers , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback In-Reply-To: <87r1wrwvam.fsf@fastmail.fm> References: <777184861.71192.1586510991834@office.mailbox.org> <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1016821769.78551.1586641375789@office.mailbox.org> <87h7xp0z1y.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874kto245n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sgh8zpmg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1084456979.81820.1586724551265@office.mailbox.org> <877dykz6ri.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r1wrwvam.fsf@fastmail.fm> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:54:35 +0200 Message-ID: <87wo6hfg4k.fsf@aquinas> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 64.147.123.24 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:49:53 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: 0.19 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=2SPZPAby; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [0.19 / 13.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.57465837285373]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.51.188.0/24:c]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.25), country: US(-0.01), ip: 209.51.188.17(-0.57)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MX_GOOD(-0.50)[cached: eggs.gnu.org]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[fastmail.fm,gnu.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[209.51.188.17:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DATE_IN_PAST(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:209.51.188.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[richard.lawrence@uni-tuebingen.de,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; URIBL_BLOCKED(0.00)[mailbox.org:email,messagingengine.com:dkim,fastmail.fm:email]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[uni-tuebingen.de]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: oq1beRfWd74L Hi all, Nice to see this issue being discussed again! I don't have a lot to add and at the moment I don't have a lot of time to contribute, but I wanted to make one point about this issue: Joost Kremers writes: > On Mon, Apr 13 2020, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: >> denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org writes: >>> What about allowing something more verbose? Perhaps >>> "cite-intext:" or "cite:intext:"? > [...] >>> The simple syntax is great for most cases, but if you want to >>> support some of those not so common biblatex commands, this might be >>> better. >> >> Alphanumeric suffix provides 62 combinations, which should hopefully >> be enough for any citation back-end out there (I'm looking at you >> biblatex). It's not terribly readable, tho, as you point out. > > 62 combinations might sound like a lot, but if you want your cite > commands to be mnemonic, you'll run out of options much more quickly. This came up in the discussion in 2015, too. So maybe this can help avoid repeating a long discussion about this: I think it is worth pointing out to Bib(La)TeX users that it is useful to avoid a proliferation of citation commands in Org syntax. The syntax discussed so far achieves this by "factoring out" formatting information that BibLaTeX puts into the command into other parts of the syntax and into the choice of citation stylesheet. For example, instead of having \footnotecite and \parencite as separate commands, you can just have a single cite command, and the choice of stylesheet determines whether citations get formatted as footnotes or as in-text parenthetical citations or as something else. This obviously has the drawback that if you only have single citation command, you only get to make the choice about formatting once for the whole document (via the stylesheet). So, I think the relevant question is: how many different basic citation types are needed *within a single document*, keeping in mind that these basic types will be formatted in different ways, depending on the choice of stylesheet? My experience is that it's typically just two (e.g. parenthetical and author-in-text), and my memory of the earlier conversation was that most people agreed. This is also borne out in the Pandoc syntax. As long as we have two basic types of citations, the finer points of formatting them can be achieved via other syntax, including the choice of stylesheet. -- Best, Richard