From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id kLUUMrQ82mMmcwEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 11:19:32 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id YND8MbQ82mNvggEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 11:19:32 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71B2439975 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:19:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNA9I-0003B1-OK; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:15:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNA9B-0003A9-OF for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:15:23 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNA99-0008UA-G9 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:15:21 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B47792404CF for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:15:08 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675246508; bh=5pcQu5nRdLXkQkKGuB90gDeAgkU3lpPxbXy4/HBX/l8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=ErtvY70YoiieIhFZDGr3anumlk8u5V5Dj4DLD2R4uQo15lEAqHzN6LCUzBblHecTs EBRKQHMRs/79SY6XFGbPwJQkGfWFIQ/Puc0kkRTZ+3FGRt5ojfnVJhf2tuVyLEC3TM Y5K0gi3ANTKCgPZqopflw8Rpt/FLTDMVMVkHkyT0D3tsmCIW90JjxsADuMjRtCbkAr UPQ4HMR4dcXNR9X5CyhukV/WgHZzFA2cVP+EL7N7cKTqU94EGUhhPK3w+GFlXHIu4U npLF/L91SBPpEI2a4LJo0i+5b+cN4KyWyIr7ckvYoxu27lyLW5RVn/gRwBD5UlEy1J 9e3qjuA3Q37kQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P6Hpy4C4Cz6tms; Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:15:06 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Tim Cross Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) In-Reply-To: <86sffpg1bv.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <87h6w63jgg.fsf@localhost> <86wn51g661.fsf@gmail.com> <87357pn57t.fsf@localhost> <86sffpg1bv.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2023 10:15:41 +0000 Message-ID: <87wn51lmia.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675246772; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rwf2N6NsaFL+HWIC1IuDNY8FxHUJryqOPF4iC6bxrIQ0JlL+qdTrTlX/CgMVn7AHxoYcPU bYe/DZ8nQMqola2e8iJIReTxUYX1Me9Psp366zmOOtUMqmjvTccIdzbQBhZ6edNt6r+CcX zJBPEHKJEtfgmplZbxtYl/MfqLDI3KBttXeh41/URSjY0/A0F5+2g41OlHA4Jt6aYlo774 mItBd/ZHSq7ANF7s3AuodS49hLcdbIF838oXEU908YNyo82ICX0q/6Ijv+ImDcgeXKcSSK qh20ti9HfMNffvl66MTrfjIx6xVerfWDsaq7cOxNk6pfofxXL49DQ3FSXRleRg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=ErtvY70Y; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675246772; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=q2UvUiS1dsyj27x99hFaphkCDfs3LQNGeV/JV3awnpI=; b=jwMT4AiyF76C03N/Kt6AKpNNzFWvBywyTnyEX1OcfClTwr/DvVpzArjJ6wzvSAPNTKHxAu 8POxGgy3zfL39SDtRWVJwToyTg50zMJFXDrN6m+OQDtFrC/mif4wna6lufYoVAyMJsNZR4 ZEh66RrF6WpzeSvxBmNR9/FdjIDnEleU/W8SdBzr4lksdqv9ndAJ+Mo+TpmF4zcPxQsIXo vfF5gE8WNrILUKcEv0Otl/3LSy8/J+Hgb+dODYmarPDJw8FUAHdm/jl/KBGkA/IhCg3Q9h Fo8wy28g3+eds7lI98TWsG5rWsZMJerA/OYl/MWVMUkKPIvYwsvI1ijXN2N68A== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=ErtvY70Y; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.54 X-Spam-Score: -4.54 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 71B2439975 X-TUID: 2PRAhMVtNO08 Tim Cross writes: > The real question is, can the additional complexity associated with > including both a time zone name and an offset be justified in order to > handle the very small number of time stamps which will fall within the > daylight savings transition hour for those locations which have daylight > savings? Keep[ing in mind that the complexity is less to do with the > time stamp format and more to do with using that information in any > meaningful sense. This, combined with the reduced readability of such > time stamps and increased possibility of user confusion leads me to > question if allowing time stamps with both offset and time zone together > in the one time stamp is worthwhile. As I originally stated in the proposal, the real usefulness of combined offset+time zone is asking Org to double-check the consistency: Consider a time stamp far in future [2052-11-12 12:00+08 @!Asia/Singapore] The time zone rules for Asia/Singapore may or may not remain the same due to political uncertainty. Today, we expect the offset to remain +08. If it changes in future, Org will warn the user. In addition, I find specifying both the time zone and the offset useful for readability: Complex time zones in timestamps will not rely on user's computer having the up-to-date time zone database: [1916-09-12 12:00+01 @Europe/London] unambiguously specifies the UTC offset yet emphasizing that the timestamp is related to specific location (Europe/London, but not Europe/Paris). In fact, one may somewhat abuse this format and specify [1916-09-12 12:00+01 @France/Marseille] emphasizing the location. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at