From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 3bD+A2jxzmB5QgEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:42:32 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id QKGsOmfxzmDYKAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 07:42:31 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3901B8E9B for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:42:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36898 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lus68-0006Vn-Ps for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 03:42:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58766) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lus5c-0006VQ-77 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 03:41:56 -0400 Received: from relay11.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.178.231]:36159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lus5Z-0001Ni-NY for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 03:41:55 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay11.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 011BA100002; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 07:41:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Nicolas Goaziou To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations References: <871raawc7j.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <4dd47d8d-5dd8-4769-7e2f-eb3438ba0b4a@mailbox.org> <87sg2orz0z.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <81051f87-a90e-56ed-7867-d6179ec1e9ad@mailbox.org> <139ff81d-4af6-1e75-f4c9-416032fc514f@mailbox.org> <87h7icatav.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <952cbae3-496c-acea-4ff1-beb9c3306979@mailbox.org> <87zgvvtoay.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <535c4059-e019-0970-afea-efed82b003ac@mailbox.org> <2009852882.89167.1623622988878@office.mailbox.org> <48377c85-5891-3658-d35b-cba1358878a8@mailbox.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Bruce D'Arcus" , Denis Maier , Org Mode List Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:41:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Bruce D'Arcus's message of "Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:37:34 -0400") Message-ID: <87v969htj9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.178.231; envelope-from=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr; helo=relay11.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Org Mode List , Denis Maier Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1624174951; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=efWx8fWpmuMABp0QYMBTyJxSO+S6EMP+lpsvrQ3+pdk=; b=SYuFoJ+bfHPoivgpVqVwZkn8MancAQTqjYmKoV9Mfjy8EIlq5X4j97QTpHZ2alxcGp/59U c1sPgo9qw392BMUOgHqOg3zqVAZ6YD8G+NA8sbTrZahualjHc1DH7A9kqTeKbhn4X6g3HS uycSpIMQs2O/zj8QrJRZKqefb/P8gu5ShSH5fvqcTJpbXUfh2Y2laEBwp0yTANjPGoRqAS zgOLdgpwqVxfeAscQpBCgS3rZ2YfWenG9QfIEz4x84y5/gORl9yL3UqUM/O3ZyzW1H6nio qChiDh/+Kmjok1zyOLH8ax3JbL9dCrb1kQyPALRlhaxBLsz4vgw5Jbbn34rn8w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1624174951; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=X3b56Q02qlqhtonxHzYCaWK6t0nwjCM3aNK6ZbMBoXKewThMAvy9XgvgvbM4ckzn6CiXNN x3Ya10hLl8B62EEofhflrLjV/fL06yM7mFrTcQatkRnOXFiDykRRJiIq7iPm4wmho+7geW YDdHhPpHeOrYFDDy0mZL6cvwRmrIdj8ZLlqsWjBu8Qtb45eveAox83pe+sE9kp3KkAB7qj oBsL9vv/CCe49ZcysiQDLEhqRXKFGfGTKDx+RLFmOrlcujLZJSdmD8HZ1SQzrRE9OVPQ7M ejeK3YI5EEd81C0cpadtIakKGAVUSEL7pio7ZDI+SP2N7I8/PKE1J0WYTq8nRA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.42 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 3901B8E9B X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: lyIgKhtI0SZq Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 7:45 AM Denis Maier wrot= e: >> * Note style input (=3Dsemantically strict input) >> >> "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole] >> >> "A quotation ending without punctuation". [cite: @hoel-71-whole] >> >> As the input preserves the location of punctuation in the original >> material, I'd say it should be much easier to deal with this. We >> don't have to add information which isn't in the input, but rather >> we'll just have to move any punctuation to after the citation >> object. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me this looks like >> a much simpler operation than going in the opposite direction. This cannot be. We don't know anything about the cite after the quotation. A bare cite could be starting out a new sentence: "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole] pretends=E2=80= =A6 OTOH, we know perfectly when a citation is meant to become a footnote (at least in basic and csl processors). And we know =E2=80=94 almost, as you demonstrated =E2=80=94 where to put that footnote. Moreover, I think the syntax you propose has another drawback: it doesn't correspond to any desired output (note or something else). As this looks artificial, I fear it might hinder readability of the Org document. ... period." [cite:@doe21] [cite/text:@doe21] pretends=E2=80=A6 >> Maybe we should stop talking about author date vs note style input, but = rather about strict vs. non-strict input. > > It's definitely not author-date vs note. I see it as in-text citations > vs note citations. As in, the former applies to other styles beyond > author-date. I think the current patch is purely about note citations. I mentioned "author-date" in a docstring just because I didn't know how to express it otherwise. So, in a way, I agree it can be considered as in-text citations vs note citations, indeed. > The example you are highlighlighting here was why I was earlier > suggesting for a rule that would allow something like this input: > > "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > ... where the second would be dropped, hence getting the expected output. This is interesting, but we might get false positives, as in the following (far-fetched) example =E2=80=A6 the so-called "foobar". [cite/text: See @hoel-71-whole p. 42]. which bites us because we need to process even non-note citations to remove the spurious punctuation while ignoring the necessity of a given punctuation character. As another, imperfect, workaround, I submit the following idea for consideration: "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside the quotation. When processing non-note citations, we just need to ensure there is at least a space after the previous element, which is less "dangerous" than removing punctuation. I find it a bit too subtle, and so error-prone, but so is punctuation anyway. WDYT? Regards, --=20 Nicolas Goaziou