From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6JzWIYKE3GFrCAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:09:54 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id QMSBGoKE3GEMQgEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:09:54 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA5BA3B034 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:09:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33578 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n703F-0005Oi-3U for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:09:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41250) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6zyQ-0002Er-Ag for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:04:57 -0500 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:59452) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6zyN-0002TP-SV for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:04:54 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B58E6C5C; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:04:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6Jp2QegAodH; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:04:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (79.163.197.106.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl [79.163.197.106]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07BB8E619F; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:04:38 +0100 (CET) References: <137562d1-e6fe-4a68-b18b-abedef513fbd@www.fastmail.com> <87zgo4xea3.fsf@mbork.pl> <2352934.1641828705@apollo2.minshall.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 28.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: Samuel Banya Subject: Re: Question Regarding Creating Workflow For Automatic Formulas For Finance Based Org Spreadsheet In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:04:34 +0100 Message-ID: <87v8yrxvi5.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=195.110.48.8; envelope-from=mbork@mbork.pl; helo=mail.mojserwer.eu X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Greg Minshall , Neil Jerram , Charles Berry Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1641841794; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=9HDb9Eg1vTiOVKeGUSDLxGa5BMN7ftlUY4SBPYr3tVI=; b=AUzi47LiJPr8jR7YlLUEICP2Z8UMiK5KAp5bjCRFhD23jEkMaVouyLTHTTOFyaWa7cbiA8 FUjpd7XyPCiX7e5MUQ4fuugVywGY+HZECzBYDw8LjN0cTGtzbmYxTiTN1UyUQMvqK8tT9h d+sauUr6yCju8oQYN9imbkk2uDnk538xml831A8mhkJSzPJP/vBHKIwlIFVb29USksnzY4 DSQuDZpjcXWGk/cGU3atNPBaNQ9WngDTtpbR+3LnhHRmGq7+Yx6+pSz5NPpq2XmCN7rKSK LS4TspChjkiOPXEkaU6401t787XYV699iQxfR0em9xPKsRuz5IErIIFv8Dn4qg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1641841794; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=mtkVQlu06tdGurNHf/4K0uXMRpQecm69gmF7ZG5NvKQBiv86pTbiwbAgIx8wt5+OUztHjM OMg4DKoFalkuov2LjxeF6C6K/GJ5fquLrA6moS+A8OC0tzUuJbYZFCGYEY62eOOrqiBjuU c775GY2vEc3OEG1LT0SbeMBCVPdiXlCEAt1c25g5Nk1uCxugOcvS6Y2fVvYtheTlZ235Li 5aLpG9WwPiae+VG0szLTHpd+WlBmG7LG7+Mhz/VLbrrfZx5niXJSzFQTRXfhoOnCpa6/so /Y7cd8uxa4J/7bcS0SxNbYs7hVTapSQ+K4RXstsdv3JnVVoG19Wt6elJalDAAQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.51 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EA5BA3B034 X-Spam-Score: -3.51 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: sp8x4bkEZcC9 On 2022-01-10, at 18:01, Samuel Banya wrote: > The 'double reporting' idea might have been why I just flat out shook my head when I saw the one presentation on 'ledger' in Emacs on YouTube a while ago as its a bit too complicated and unnecessary for a layman. > > I just don't need that kind of over-thinking when it comes to my finances since I just need a spreadsheet that listed expenses, and to count totals. That's about it. You may think it's overthinking... unless you encounter one of the many /real-world problems/ the double-accounting system was /designed/ to solve. A classic example is when you buy something on day X (expense) but pay for it on day Y (cash outflow), and you want to be able to record both dates. Or you have some irregular costs (like paying for a car insurance once a year) and you want to spread them more evenly over a longer period, so that your /cash outflow/ is recorded once a year, but the associated /cost/ is recorded every month. (This may help tremendously with budgeting.) Or you decide to transfer money between two bank accounts (both yours), but money going from account A arrives at account B after one day (or even later). Or you buy something for someone and he pays you back a few days (or weeks, or months) later, or not at all (which may happen). As you might notice, the first two examples are situations when the /expense/ and /cash outflow/ are detached in time - something /extremely/ common in business, but also pretty common in personal finance. You might say that you don't care - and I understand that - but it is actually very useful to track /both/ expenses (so that you know your cost of living etc.) and cash in- and outflows (so that you can reconcile your ledger with your cash/bank account etc., to ensure you didn't make any mistake). (If you - like most people, I assume - barely have liquidity, tracking cash flows may become even more important.) Also, the difference in time between income/expenses and cash flow may become /extremely/ important when calculating taxes. The third example is also connected with things happening at different moments in time, though to be fair, if you're only interested in actual /expenses/, you probably wouldn't even want to record that. The last example is similar to the third one - it's not an /expense/ per se, but again - tracking cash is useful, tracking your assets and liabilities (in that case, money you owe to other people and money other people owe to you) is /extremely/ useful, even just as an individual, and if that guy /doesn't/ pay you back (mind you, this may happen for /legitimate/ issues, like death), it can actually /become/ an expense. Also, using accounting software makes things like calculating your net worth trivial. And there are other issues which can quickly become pretty hairy when you try to wrap you head around them with a simple spreadsheet (like dealing with various currencies/stock/commodities with varying prices, for instance), but which have standard, well-known solutions in the world of accounting. Actually, I'd argue that learning the basics of accounting could help a /layman/ better manage their finances. While the technicalities of bookkeeping are not relevant to that, the general ideas like cash flow, income and expenses, balance sheet, assets and liabilities, liquidity, compound interest etc. provide a very useful way of thinking about money. Two examples. A friend of mine (an economist) was asked to conduct a 45-minute class for high-schoolers about economics (and finance, I guess). He decided that if these kids are to have any use of that class, he should gice them a few sentences - "anchors", I'd call them - which could be some kind of guidelines to use when navigating the world of economy (on a scale of a country as well as of a household) and finance. One of these sentences was: "If I don't have enough cash to buy , it means I cannot afford it." It's as simple as that - but it goes very much against the message you get from (among others) the banking system. (And yes, there are "exceptions". But you can learn about those later.) The second example is actually my pet peeve - some people buy things and call them "investments", probably to (possibly unconsciously) justify these expenses. Usually these expenses have /nothing/ to do with investments. Buying a car is /not/ an investment unless you use it to earn money. Buying a better tv is /not/ an investment. Buying a house /can/ be an investment if it allows you to save on rent. Simply put: an "investment" is an expense you make that will enable you to generate income (or at least cut costs) in the future (with reasonable certainty or at least reasonable probability - buying a lottery ticket is /not/ an investment). Anyway, if any of the above sounds like it might be useful for you, I'd strongly suggest learning the basics of double accounting. It's neither very hard nor boring! Best, mb > > I will take a look at the other suggestions with specific Org Mode formulas, looked awesome, thanks. > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, at 10:31 AM, Greg Minshall wrote: >> > I'm wondering if your opinion about Ledger isn't influenced by the fact >> > that it uses basic accounting principles, like the idea of double-entry >> > accounting. For me, it's /very/ simple and intuitive, but I graduated >> > in economics many years ago and had a (basic, but still) course on >> > accounting. If that is your problem, I'd suggest spending some time on >> > understanding that - even if you don't end up using Ledger but some >> > other software, you might find learning about accounting useful. (Also, >> > it's fascinating. No, really! It's an extremely clever abstract >> > system with a real-life use-case.) >> >> i agree that learning the principles of double-entry is worthwhile, >> actually interesting, and of a very interesting history! >> -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl