emacs-orgmode@gnu.org archives
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: "Juan Manuel Macías" <maciaschain@posteo.net>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
Cc: Daniel Fleischer <danflscr@gmail.com>,
	 Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>,
	 emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Line breaks and brackets in LaTeX export
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:27:54 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87v8oid48l.fsf@posteo.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <874jw2r7s5.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:47:38 +0000")

Ihor Radchenko writes:

> I haven't seen any publication rule that prevents using valid LaTeX
> commands like this. Do you have concrete examples? If not, one could
> argue that any auto-generated output could break some imaginary rule.

No, I don't have any concrete example. But it is one thing to use a
valid LaTeX command and another to use it unnecessarily. It's like
putting \vspace{0pt} between each paragraph.

> I am also wondering how LaTeX documents generated from LyX or TeXmacs
> look like. Are they not using some obvious machine-generated constructs?

I don't know, because I haven't seen them. But I'd bet (at the risk of
losing the bet) that none of those machine-generated constructs produce
anything as unnecessary as Org's present solution. The situation now
becomes the following:

Pandoc: selective solution. In specific cases it returns {[}...{]}

Org: non-selective solution = ugly LaTeX code.

>> Anyway. As for the compilation, it is highly unlikely that \empty will
>> cause any unexpected error. But LaTeX and its over 6000 packages is
>> unpredictable. It also seemed unlikely that \relax would cause any
>> problems, and catching up on the last discussion, it had to be replaced
>> by \empty because it returned an error just before \hline. \relax is one
>> of the recommended solutions from LaTeX, because it tells LaTeX that the
>> previous macro has finished expanding, but it is recommended keeping in
>> mind that the user will apply it only when needed, not everywhere. And
>> before \hline it doesn't make sense because there will never be an
>> '\\[...]' error. So, in the current situation, we can ask ourselves: is
>> \empty everywhere safe? Everything points to yes. Can we be 100% sure?
>> ...?
>
> My answer is: "\\" is 100% not universally safe. Simply because we have
> that bug report with [ ... ] items in tables.
> So, anything with no concrete counter-example is better as long as we
> are reasonably sure that we are not breaking LaTeX conventions.

As I said, this is a known LaTeX problem that occurs in a rare case, for
which there is a known solution (or several), which should be applied in
the specific case. And Org already provides the necessary tools to apply
it.

>> The only thing I can think of, for a non-selective solution like the
>> current one, is the following: if \\ has an optional argument that must
>> be a length, then let's give it, but with a value of zero: \\[0pt], which
>> is equivalent to putting the value by default (zero) explicitly.
>
> This has been proposed and then rejected by Max in
> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/ti5tdb$rd2$1@ciao.gmane.io/ and he
> concluded that some side effects are present when using \\[0pt]:
>
> Max>       \\[0pt]
> Max> 
> Max> causes insertion of some code for negative vertical skip (of zero height 
> Max> this case). It should not be really harmful, but I would avoid this

I would like to see some concrete example where this solution was
problematic. \\[0pt] is exactly the same as \\ (as for the effects).
Redundant but valid.



  reply	other threads:[~2022-10-17 12:29 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 54+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-10-15 21:35 [bug] `org-latex-line-break-safe' breaks the export of verse blocks to LaTeX Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-16  3:24 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-16 12:08   ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-16 15:04 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-16 16:33   ` Verse block and separations (was: [bug] `org-latex-line-break-safe' breaks the export of verse blocks to LaTeX) Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-17  8:54     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-18  9:39       ` Verse block and separations Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-17 14:48     ` Verse block and separations (was: [bug] `org-latex-line-break-safe' breaks the export of verse blocks to LaTeX) Max Nikulin
2022-10-19 11:08     ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-19 11:24       ` Verse block and separations Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-16 17:14   ` Line breaks and brackets in LaTeX export (was: [bug] `org-latex-line-break-safe' breaks the export of verse blocks to LaTeX) Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-17  9:04     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-17 11:30       ` Line breaks and brackets in LaTeX export Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-17 11:47         ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-17 12:27           ` Juan Manuel Macías [this message]
2022-10-17 15:01         ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-17 16:46           ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-17 18:04             ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-18  4:41               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-18 14:23                 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-19  3:57                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-19  5:11                     ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-19 11:16                       ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-19 12:30                         ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-19 17:07                           ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-20 16:55                             ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-21  3:34                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-21 16:38                                 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-21 19:32                                   ` Juan Manuel Macías
     [not found]                         ` <ac290c60-3b54-5521-eb16-82e6611dc6e2@gmail.com>
2022-10-20 17:07                           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-29  2:36                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-13 17:01                       ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-18  4:39             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-19 17:12               ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-20  5:07                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-20 17:15                   ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-21  3:41                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-21 16:32                       ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-22  5:15                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-22 12:26                           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-10-22 15:55                           ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-01  1:51                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-01 16:07                               ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-02  6:44                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-02  6:46                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-02 15:27                                     ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-03  6:15                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-03 15:00                                         ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-11-03 15:33                                           ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-03 15:48                                             ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-11-04  4:23                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-04  5:40                                               ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-05  5:30                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-11-01 16:55 Juan Manuel Macías

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.orgmode.org/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=87v8oid48l.fsf@posteo.net \
    --to=maciaschain@posteo.net \
    --cc=danflscr@gmail.com \
    --cc=emacs-orgmode@gnu.org \
    --cc=manikulin@gmail.com \
    --cc=yantar92@posteo.net \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).