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* Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
@ 2020-09-04 14:44 TEC
  2020-09-04 16:14 ` Gustav Wikström
  2020-09-05  5:30 ` stardiviner
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-09-04 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: org-mode-email


Hi everyone,

Prompted by the fact that Markdown is registered as a MIME type
(RFC7763) and perusing the MIME registration procedure (RFC6838),
I wonder if it may be possible to register Org as a MIME type?

There are a few parts of RFC6838 in particular which give me hope, 
such
as:
> [§4.9] universal support and implementation of a media type are 
> NOT a
> requirement for registration.

I'm guessing the main barrier wold be a the lack of a published
specification --- I'm guessing a complete version of
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html published under the 
main
site (i.e. https://orgmode.org/standard.html) would be required.

Looking for other uses of the .org extension, there doesn't seem 
to be
much. The main result is from "Lotus Organiser", which seems to be 
a
(discontinued) PIM from IBM which used .org as its file type in 
the 1992
release. Other than that it seems that Yamaha and SoundBlaster 
have used
it as an extension for organ audio samples.

If it does seem possible to have text/org formally added as a mime 
type,
I would love to push this.

Please let me know what you think.

All the best,

Timothy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-04 14:44 Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type TEC
@ 2020-09-04 16:14 ` Gustav Wikström
  2020-09-05  5:30 ` stardiviner
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Gustav Wikström @ 2020-09-04 16:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: org-mode-email, TEC

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1528 bytes --]

That would be very nice indeed.

/Gustav
________________________________
From: Emacs-orgmode <emacs-orgmode-bounces+gustav=whil.se@gnu.org> on behalf of TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 4:44:50 PM
To: org-mode-email <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type


Hi everyone,

Prompted by the fact that Markdown is registered as a MIME type
(RFC7763) and perusing the MIME registration procedure (RFC6838),
I wonder if it may be possible to register Org as a MIME type?

There are a few parts of RFC6838 in particular which give me hope,
such
as:
> [§4.9] universal support and implementation of a media type are
> NOT a
> requirement for registration.

I'm guessing the main barrier wold be a the lack of a published
specification --- I'm guessing a complete version of
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html published under the
main
site (i.e. https://orgmode.org/standard.html) would be required.

Looking for other uses of the .org extension, there doesn't seem
to be
much. The main result is from "Lotus Organiser", which seems to be
a
(discontinued) PIM from IBM which used .org as its file type in
the 1992
release. Other than that it seems that Yamaha and SoundBlaster
have used
it as an extension for organ audio samples.

If it does seem possible to have text/org formally added as a mime
type,
I would love to push this.

Please let me know what you think.

All the best,

Timothy.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2613 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-04 14:44 Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type TEC
  2020-09-04 16:14 ` Gustav Wikström
@ 2020-09-05  5:30 ` stardiviner
  2020-09-05  5:50   ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: stardiviner @ 2020-09-05  5:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


I would like to see this result too. Great to know this :)

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Prompted by the fact that Markdown is registered as a MIME type
> (RFC7763) and perusing the MIME registration procedure (RFC6838),
> I wonder if it may be possible to register Org as a MIME type?
>
> There are a few parts of RFC6838 in particular which give me hope, 
> such
> as:
>> [§4.9] universal support and implementation of a media type are 
>> NOT a
>> requirement for registration.
>
> I'm guessing the main barrier wold be a the lack of a published
> specification --- I'm guessing a complete version of
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html published under the 
> main
> site (i.e. https://orgmode.org/standard.html) would be required.
>
> Looking for other uses of the .org extension, there doesn't seem 
> to be
> much. The main result is from "Lotus Organiser", which seems to be 
> a
> (discontinued) PIM from IBM which used .org as its file type in 
> the 1992
> release. Other than that it seems that Yamaha and SoundBlaster 
> have used
> it as an extension for organ audio samples.
>
> If it does seem possible to have text/org formally added as a mime 
> type,
> I would love to push this.
>
> Please let me know what you think.
>
> All the best,
>
> Timothy.


-- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-05  5:30 ` stardiviner
@ 2020-09-05  5:50   ` Bastien
  2020-09-05  5:53     ` TEC
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-09-05  5:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: stardiviner; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, TEC

Hi,

stardiviner <numbchild@gmail.com> writes:

> I would like to see this result too. Great to know this :)

Well, there is no "result" expected yet, because we did not yet
agreed to make a formal request.

Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible outcomes.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-05  5:50   ` Bastien
@ 2020-09-05  5:53     ` TEC
  2020-09-17  7:09       ` TEC
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-09-05  5:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Just a quick note from me.

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
> Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible 
> outcomes.

This is /exactly/ what I was hoping to prompt with this email.
I think it would be a nice idea (assuming feasibility), but it's
certainly not something to rush.

All the best,

Timothy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-05  5:53     ` TEC
@ 2020-09-17  7:09       ` TEC
  2020-09-17  7:18         ` hj-orgmode-1
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-09-17  7:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


I'm still hoping for that discussion :P

To the Org community, if you have thoughts on this - please share them
:)

Timothy.

Me earlier:
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>> Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible outcomes.
>
> This is /exactly/ what I was hoping to prompt with this email.
> I think it would be a nice idea (assuming feasibility), but it's
> certainly not something to rush.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-17  7:09       ` TEC
@ 2020-09-17  7:18         ` hj-orgmode-1
  2020-09-23  7:31           ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: hj-orgmode-1 @ 2020-09-17  7:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


  I do not have much insight into all the possible outcomes (i.e. I am 
clueless about such outcomes) except one outcome - orgmode MIME type 
gets registered.  I think it would serve well the proliferation and 
popularization of org-mode. I.e. I do not see any negatives, only 
positives. After successful registration, I don't think anyone would 
really complain that their "Lotus Organiser" or organ audio samples do 
not get processed as usual.

  AFAIC, push this.

  H J

On 9/17/20 9:09 AM, TEC wrote:
> I'm still hoping for that discussion :P
>
> To the Org community, if you have thoughts on this - please share them
> :)
>
> Timothy.
>
> Me earlier:
>> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>>> Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible outcomes.
>> This is /exactly/ what I was hoping to prompt with this email.
>> I think it would be a nice idea (assuming feasibility), but it's
>> certainly not something to rush.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-17  7:18         ` hj-orgmode-1
@ 2020-09-23  7:31           ` Bastien
  2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-09-23  7:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: hj-orgmode-1; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, TEC

Hi,

hj-orgmode-1@hj.proberto.com writes:

> I do not have much insight into all the possible outcomes (i.e. I am
> clueless about such outcomes) except one outcome - orgmode MIME type
> gets registered.  

If there is absolutely zero burden put on the shoulders of Org's
maintainers, then I'm all for it.

> I think it would serve well the proliferation and
> popularization of org-mode. 

Agreed.

Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?

Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-09-23  7:31           ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
  2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-10-01  3:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> If there is absolutely zero burden put on the shoulders of Org's
> maintainers, then I'm all for it.

From the look of things, there's just effort in the initial 
creation.

>> I think it would serve well the proliferation and
>> popularization of org-mode.
>
> Agreed.

This is the main reason why I'm a fan of the idea :)

> Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?

I've read through https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838 and I 
couldn't see
any constraints placed on us beyond the initial registration's 
requirements.

For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be needed. 
Perhaps
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html will do? It looks 
complete.

I'm hoping we could then use https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763
(registration of text/markdown) as a template, where we could just 
link
to the syntax specification.

Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the main 
site as
something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.

I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit of a
specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped 
down to
just the bare information), so perhaps
orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some 
second
opinions.

> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?

In about two months, I am.

It looks like creating and draft and then emailing it to
media-types@iana.org would probably be the best approach.

All the best,

Timothy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
@ 2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
  2020-10-01  5:48                 ` TEC
  2020-10-01 15:39               ` Wes Hardaker
  2020-10-14  9:52               ` Lennart C. Karssen
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-01  5:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode

Hi Timothy,

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

>> Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?
>
> I've read through https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838 and I couldn't
> see any constraints placed on us beyond the initial registration's
> requirements.

You register once and for all?  Is there some red tape involved in
maintaining the registration?

> For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be
> needed. Perhaps https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html will
> do? It looks complete.

We should first read https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html
and carefully check that it is up to date and still accurate, then
make it more user oriented (for now it more developers oriented.)

I'm ready to work on this before the end of the year.

> Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the main
> site as something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.

I would not go into this direction: as you know, I'd like the home 
of orgmode.org to be just one page (index.org/html) and move other
pages to Worg.  So let's not move org-syntax.org to the website,
it is good as a worg resource.

> I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit of a
> specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped down
> to just the bare information), so perhaps
> orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some second
> opinions.

This would be too many docs to maintain.

>> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
>
> In about two months, I am.

Okay, thanks!  Let's work on stabilizing Org syntax and reconsider the
registration idea then.  I will also ping future maintainers on this.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-01  5:48                 ` TEC
  2020-10-01  6:46                   ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-10-01  5:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> You register once and for all?  Is there some red tape involved 
> in
> maintaining the registration?

Assuming I haven't misread/missed anything, the only thing that we 
might
cause a change is if the specification changes - but since it 
looks like
we can just link to our specification we probably wouldn't even 
need to
do that.

>> For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be
>> needed. Perhaps https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html 
>> will
>> do? It looks complete.
>
> We should first read 
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html
> and carefully check that it is up to date and still accurate, 
> then
> make it more user oriented (for now it more developers 
> oriented.)

I see. Would there be someone well suited to check that everything 
is
accurate? I wouldn't feel confident auditing the whole document by
myself.

> I'm ready to work on this before the end of the year.

Marvellous!

>> Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the 
>> main
>> site as something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.
>
> I would not go into this direction: as you know, I'd like the 
> home
> of orgmode.org to be just one page (index.org/html) and move 
> other
> pages to Worg.  So let's not move org-syntax.org to the website,
> it is good as a worg resource.

Mmm. My thoughts on having lots on Worg haven't changed, I was 
just
thinking it might seem more 'official' / better if the page were 
nearer
to the site root.

>> I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit 
>> of a
>> specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped 
>> down
>> to just the bare information), so perhaps
>> orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some 
>> second
>> opinions.
>
> This would be too many docs to maintain.

This was partly motivated from it sometimes being annoying to just
check what forms an element can take and not finding it easy to 
see in
the manual.

Yea, maintaining /another/ file doesn't seem like a good idea 
though...

>>> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
>>
>> In about two months, I am.
>
> Okay, thanks!  Let's work on stabilizing Org syntax and 
> reconsider the
> registration idea then.  I will also ping future maintainers on 
> this.

Sounds good! Thanks for being open to the idea :)

All the best,

Timothy.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01  5:48                 ` TEC
@ 2020-10-01  6:46                   ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-01  6:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> I see. Would there be someone well suited to check that everything is
> accurate? I wouldn't feel confident auditing the whole document by
> myself.

Well, "we" of course includes Nicolas and other core contributors, but
anyone is welcome.  This should not be done by a single person.

> Mmm. My thoughts on having lots on Worg haven't changed, I was just
> thinking it might seem more 'official' / better if the page were
> nearer to the site root.

I get that, but I feel it is not needed.

> This was partly motivated from it sometimes being annoying to just
> check what forms an element can take and not finding it easy to see in
> the manual.

If org-syntax.org becomes stable enough in Worg, we can link to this
page from the manual when necessary.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
  2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-01 15:39               ` Wes Hardaker
  2020-10-01 15:45                 ` TEC
  2020-10-14  9:52               ` Lennart C. Karssen
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Wes Hardaker @ 2020-10-01 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: Bastien, hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> > Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
> 
> In about two months, I am.

IETF person here.  If you want help or a co-author, I can help if needed.

[not a mime expert, but I've been involved with the IETF for ~25 years]
-- 
Wes Hardaker                                     
My Pictures:       http://capturedonearth.com/
My Thoughts:       http://blog.capturedonearth.com/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01 15:39               ` Wes Hardaker
@ 2020-10-01 15:45                 ` TEC
  2020-10-06 18:03                   ` Wes Hardaker
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-10-01 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wes Hardaker; +Cc: Bastien, hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode


Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

> IETF person here.  If you want help or a co-author, I can help 
> if needed.
>
> [not a mime expert, but I've been involved with the IETF for ~25 
> years]

Fantastic! I've never summited an RFC or interacted with the IETF 
before
in my life, so that sounds great to me :)

Thanks for volunteering,

Timothy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01 15:45                 ` TEC
@ 2020-10-06 18:03                   ` Wes Hardaker
  2020-10-06 19:03                     ` TEC
  2020-10-24 12:09                     ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Wes Hardaker @ 2020-10-06 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: Bastien, hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:
> 
> > IETF person here.  If you want help or a co-author, I can help if
> > needed.
> >
> > [not a mime expert, but I've been involved with the IETF for ~25
> > years]
> 
> Fantastic! I've never summited an RFC or interacted with the IETF
> before in my life, so that sounds great to me :)

Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
(I'm swamped this week with a deadline).
-- 
Wes Hardaker                                     
My Pictures:       http://capturedonearth.com/
My Thoughts:       http://blog.capturedonearth.com/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-06 18:03                   ` Wes Hardaker
@ 2020-10-06 19:03                     ` TEC
  2020-10-06 20:39                       ` Palak Mathur
  2020-10-24 12:09                     ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: TEC @ 2020-10-06 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wes Hardaker; +Cc: Bastien, hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode


Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next 
> week
> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).

Sounds good :) I'm fairly busy for the next ~month and a half 
anyway so
I'm happy to accommodate delays.

Would it be a good idea to use the markdown RFC as a template? 
That's
what I was originally thinking.

Thanks,

Timothy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-06 19:03                     ` TEC
@ 2020-10-06 20:39                       ` Palak Mathur
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Palak Mathur @ 2020-10-06 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TEC; +Cc: Bastien, hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode


> On Oct 6, 2020, at 2:03 PM, TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:
> 
>> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
>> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).
> 
> Sounds good :) I'm fairly busy for the next ~month and a half anyway so
> I'm happy to accommodate delays.
> 
> Would it be a good idea to use the markdown RFC as a template? That's
> what I was originally thinking.
> 

Let me know if you need help. I can help out as well.


> Thanks,
> 
> Timothy.
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
  2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
  2020-10-01 15:39               ` Wes Hardaker
@ 2020-10-14  9:52               ` Lennart C. Karssen
  2020-10-14 14:22                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Lennart C. Karssen @ 2020-10-14  9:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3078 bytes --]

Hi all,

On 01-10-2020 05:40, TEC wrote:
> 
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>> If there is absolutely zero burden put on the shoulders of Org's
>> maintainers, then I'm all for it.
> 
> From the look of things, there's just effort in the initial creation.
> 
>>> I think it would serve well the proliferation and
>>> popularization of org-mode.
>>
>> Agreed.
> 
> This is the main reason why I'm a fan of the idea :)
> 
>> Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?
> 
> I've read through https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838 and I couldn't see
> any constraints placed on us beyond the initial registration's
> requirements.
> 
> For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be needed. Perhaps
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html will do? It looks complete.


One of the things I have been wondering about with regard to Org syntax
is the use of capital letters vs. lowercase ones for e.g. blocks and
options.

The org-syntax.html document linked above lists blocks as
#+BEGIN_NAME/#+END_NAME, #+KEY: VALUE, #+CALL: VALUE, #+ATTR_BACKEND,
etc. all in uppercase.

On the other hand, the manual states in the introduction: "Keywords and
blocks are written in uppercase to enhance their readability, but you
can use lowercase in your Org files."

At the same time, when I run org-export-dispatch to insert the default
export template (via C-c C-e # default on Org 9.3) I get all #+options,
#+title, etc. lines in lowercase.


Wouldn't it be a good idea to standardise on either uppercase or
lowercase? Limitting the standard to only one of the two case options
will probably spark a huge debate on which one to choose because one
side would have to change their behaviour. But at least for the Org code
that is generated automatically like in the above case of the default
export template I think choosing a 'preferred' option that is consistent
with the syntax document and the manual would help.


Best regards,

Lennart.

> 
> I'm hoping we could then use https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763
> (registration of text/markdown) as a template, where we could just link
> to the syntax specification.
> 
> Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the main site as
> something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.
> 
> I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit of a
> specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped down to
> just the bare information), so perhaps
> orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some second
> opinions.
> 
>> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
> 
> In about two months, I am.
> 
> It looks like creating and draft and then emailing it to
> media-types@iana.org would probably be the best approach.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Timothy.
> 

-- 
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
L.C. Karssen
The Netherlands

lennart@karssen.org
http://blog.karssen.org
GPG key ID: A88F554A
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 228 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-14  9:52               ` Lennart C. Karssen
@ 2020-10-14 14:22                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Goaziou @ 2020-10-14 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lennart C. Karssen; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hello,

"Lennart C. Karssen" <lennart@karssen.org> writes:

> Wouldn't it be a good idea to standardise on either uppercase or
> lowercase? Limitting the standard to only one of the two case options
> will probably spark a huge debate on which one to choose because one
> side would have to change their behaviour. But at least for the Org code
> that is generated automatically like in the above case of the default
> export template I think choosing a 'preferred' option that is consistent
> with the syntax document and the manual would help.

Org is standardized on lower case. Uppercase is used in the manual as
a poor man's bold, and supported for historical reasons.

Regards,
-- 
Nicolas Goaziou


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-06 18:03                   ` Wes Hardaker
  2020-10-06 19:03                     ` TEC
@ 2020-10-24 12:09                     ` Bastien
  2020-10-24 12:28                       ` Palak Mathur
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-24 12:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wes Hardaker; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode, TEC

Hi Wes,

Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).

If you manage to make any progress on this, please share it with the
whole list so that interested people can possibly follow.

For the record, I think we should first enhance the Worg documentation
on Org's syntax before applying to register Org as a MIME type.  

https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html is useful but my feeling
is that it describes Org "syntax" from the point of view of the Emacs
parser -- we surely need something a bit more agnostic for registering
Org as MIME type.

I'm adding this as a call for help on https://updates.orgmode.org.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 12:09                     ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-24 12:28                       ` Palak Mathur
  2020-10-24 12:50                         ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Palak Mathur @ 2020-10-24 12:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, TEC



> On Oct 24, 2020, at 7:09 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Wes,
> 
> Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:
> 
>> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
>> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).
> 
> If you manage to make any progress on this, please share it with the
> whole list so that interested people can possibly follow.
> 
> For the record, I think we should first enhance the Worg documentation
> on Org's syntax before applying to register Org as a MIME type.  
> 
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html is useful but my feeling
> is that it describes Org "syntax" from the point of view of the Emacs
> parser -- we surely need something a bit more agnostic for registering
> Org as MIME type.
> 
> I'm adding this as a call for help on https://updates.orgmode.org.
> 
> Best,
> 

I am fairly new to Org. Let me see if I can use it as a markup in an Editor other than Emacs. I will report on what syntax options are very Emacs specific, what are general and what can be ported. 



> -- 
> Bastien
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 12:28                       ` Palak Mathur
@ 2020-10-24 12:50                         ` Bastien
  2020-10-24 13:09                           ` Leo Vivier
  2020-10-24 15:00                           ` Palak Mathur
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-24 12:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Palak Mathur; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, TEC

Hi Palak,

Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:

> I am fairly new to Org. Let me see if I can use it as a markup in an
> Editor other than Emacs. I will report on what syntax options are very
> Emacs specific, what are general and what can be ported.

Thanks!  I think it is less a matter of *what* is described in
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html rather than *how* it is
described.

As the first paragraph says: 

  "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
  read by its parser (Org Elements)"

while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
(1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.

I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
work.

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 12:50                         ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-24 13:09                           ` Leo Vivier
  2020-10-24 13:38                             ` Bastien
  2020-10-24 15:00                           ` Palak Mathur
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Leo Vivier @ 2020-10-24 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, Palak Mathur, TEC

Hi there,

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> As the first paragraph says: 
>
>   "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
>   read by its parser (Org Elements)"
>
> while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
> (1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.

I agree that (1) and (2) should be two different documents.  (2) would
be especially interesting since there are quite a few projects afoot to
parse Org documents outside of Emacs:
- go-org (Go)
  https://github.com/niklasfasching/go-org
- orgize (Rust)
  https://docs.rs/orgize/0.8.4/orgize/

They are in various stages of advancement, but a design document would
go a long way in federating those efforts.

> I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
> work.

I assume that it would be, yes.  However, as someone with a vested
interest in developing an efficient external parser for Org documents,
I’d love to contribute.  I’ve been playing around lately with ox.el to
write an exporter to Jupyter (more on that soon), and since it makes
extensive use of org-element.el, I’d have a modicum of knowledge upon
which I could initiate the effort.

Best,

-- 
Leo Vivier
Freelance Software Engineer
Website: www.leovivier.com | Blog: www.zaeph.net


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 13:09                           ` Leo Vivier
@ 2020-10-24 13:38                             ` Bastien
  2020-10-24 13:49                               ` Leo Vivier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-24 13:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leo Vivier
  Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Palak Mathur, emacs-orgmode, mail, Wes Hardaker, TEC

Hi Leo,

Leo Vivier <zaeph@zaeph.net> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> As the first paragraph says: 
>>
>>   "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
>>   read by its parser (Org Elements)"
>>
>> while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
>> (1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.
>
> I agree that (1) and (2) should be two different documents.  

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear: (1) and (2) do not need to be separate
documents. I think both can be described in a single document, my main
point was that the current org-syntax.org is from none of these points
of view.

> (2) would
> be especially interesting since there are quite a few projects afoot to
> parse Org documents outside of Emacs:
> - go-org (Go)
>   https://github.com/niklasfasching/go-org
> - orgize (Rust)
>   https://docs.rs/orgize/0.8.4/orgize/
>
> They are in various stages of advancement, but a design document would
> go a long way in federating those efforts.
>
>> I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
>> work.
>
> I assume that it would be, yes.  However, as someone with a vested
> interest in developing an efficient external parser for Org documents,
> I’d love to contribute.  I’ve been playing around lately with ox.el to
> write an exporter to Jupyter (more on that soon), and since it makes
> extensive use of org-element.el, I’d have a modicum of knowledge upon
> which I could initiate the effort.

Great, thanks for volunteering.  I think this is something you should
perhaps do with a long time Org user, ping-pong'ing with commits, not
alone.

Nicolas, what's your take on this?

Would it be okay for you if we rename worg/dev/org-syntax.org to
something like worg/dev/org-elements-syntax.org or would that be
confusing?

Would you have any advice on how to tackle worg/org-syntax.org in a
generic and useful way?

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 13:38                             ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-24 13:49                               ` Leo Vivier
  2020-10-24 15:12                                 ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Leo Vivier @ 2020-10-24 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien, mail
  Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, Palak Mathur, TEC

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Sorry, perhaps I was not clear: (1) and (2) do not need to be separate
> documents.

No, you were quite clear.  I just surmised that two documents would be
required, but upon thinking about it some more, (1) and (2) would make
for a cohesive whole.

> Great, thanks for volunteering.  I think this is something you should
> perhaps do with a long time Org user, ping-pong'ing with commits, not
> alone.

Sure, I’d be up for that.

> Would it be okay for you if we rename worg/dev/org-syntax.org to
> something like worg/dev/org-elements-syntax.org or would that be
> confusing?

Since we already have worg/dev/org-element-api.org [1], I think the
rename to worg/dev/org-element-syntax.org would be welcome.

Notes :
[1] https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-element-api.html

-- 
Leo Vivier
Freelance Software Engineer
Website: www.leovivier.com | Blog: www.zaeph.net


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 12:50                         ` Bastien
  2020-10-24 13:09                           ` Leo Vivier
@ 2020-10-24 15:00                           ` Palak Mathur
  2020-10-24 15:40                             ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Palak Mathur @ 2020-10-24 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, TEC



Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2020, at 7:50 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Palak,
> 
> Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> I am fairly new to Org. Let me see if I can use it as a markup in an
>> Editor other than Emacs. I will report on what syntax options are very
>> Emacs specific, what are general and what can be ported.
> 
> Thanks!  I think it is less a matter of *what* is described in
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html rather than *how* it is
> described.
> 
> As the first paragraph says: 
> 
>  "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
>  read by its parser (Org Elements)"
> 
> while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
> (1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.
> 
I understand that. 

> I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
> work.
> 

Yes, it is going to be some work. I will try to get something started and share a draft. 


> -- 
> Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 13:49                               ` Leo Vivier
@ 2020-10-24 15:12                                 ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-24 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leo Vivier
  Cc: hj-orgmode-1, mail, emacs-orgmode, Palak Mathur, Wes Hardaker, TEC

Hi Leo,

Leo Vivier <zaeph@zaeph.net> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Sorry, perhaps I was not clear: (1) and (2) do not need to be separate
>> documents.
>
> No, you were quite clear.  I just surmised that two documents would be
> required, but upon thinking about it some more, (1) and (2) would make
> for a cohesive whole.

Okay -- perhaps we'll decide otherwise when we can judge by the content.

>> Great, thanks for volunteering.  I think this is something you should
>> perhaps do with a long time Org user, ping-pong'ing with commits, not
>> alone.
>
> Sure, I’d be up for that.

Thanks!  Anyone else to work on this with Leo?

>> Would it be okay for you if we rename worg/dev/org-syntax.org to
>> something like worg/dev/org-elements-syntax.org or would that be
>> confusing?
>
> Since we already have worg/dev/org-element-api.org [1], I think the
> rename to worg/dev/org-element-syntax.org would be welcome.

(Just to be clear, since the quotation context suggests otherwise, I
was really asking Nicolas, as he's the author of this document.)

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 15:00                           ` Palak Mathur
@ 2020-10-24 15:40                             ` Bastien
  2020-10-24 15:57                               ` Palak Mathur
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-10-24 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Palak Mathur; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, TEC

Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:

> Yes, it is going to be some work. I will try to get something
> started and share a draft.

Can you and Leo work together on this ?

Perhaps you can share a first draft (from the user point of view) that
Leo can consolidate (from a generic parser point of view) ?

Thanks to both for your help!

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
  2020-10-24 15:40                             ` Bastien
@ 2020-10-24 15:57                               ` Palak Mathur
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Palak Mathur @ 2020-10-24 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, Wes Hardaker, emacs-orgmode, TEC




> On Oct 24, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Yes, it is going to be some work. I will try to get something
>> started and share a draft.
> 
> Can you and Leo work together on this ?
> 
> Perhaps you can share a first draft (from the user point of view) that
> Leo can consolidate (from a generic parser point of view) ?
> 

Sure! 

> Thanks to both for your help!
> 





> -- 
> Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
@ 2020-09-24 20:25 Andrea
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Andrea @ 2020-09-24 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bzg; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode, tecosaur

Hi,

What are the pros?

About the cons: maybe we need to look more into the requirements.

I am looking at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2048 and the one that
concerns me a little is 2.2.6: I guess somebody would need to write a
bit of docs about security concerns. Or you can go the way Markdown did
it: from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763#section-2

"Security considerations:

      Markdown interpreted as plain text is relatively harmless.  A text
      editor need only display the text.  The editor SHOULD take care to
      handle control characters appropriately and to limit the effect of
      the Markdown to the text-editing area itself; malicious Unicode-
      based Markdown could, for example, surreptitiously change the
      directionality of the text.  An editor for normal text would
      already take these control characters into consideration, however.

      Markdown interpreted as a precursor to other formats, such as
      HTML, carries all of the security considerations as the target
      formats.  For example, HTML can contain instructions to execute
      scripts, redirect the user to other web pages, download remote
      content, and upload personally identifiable information.  Markdown
      also can contain islands of formal markup, such as HTML.  These
      islands of formal markup may be passed as they are, transformed,
      or ignored (perhaps because the islands are conditional or
      incompatible) when the Markdown is processed.  Since Markdown may
      have different interpretations depending on the tool and the
      environment, a better approach is to analyze (and sanitize or
      block) the output markup, rather than attempting to analyze the
      Markdown.
"

Do they have an org-babel?

Thanks,

Andrea


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type
@ 2020-09-24 20:25 Andrea
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Andrea @ 2020-09-24 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bzg; +Cc: hj-orgmode-1, emacs-orgmode, tecosaur

Hi,

What are the pros?

About the cons: maybe we need to look more into the requirements.

I am looking at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2048 and the one that
concerns me a little is 2.2.6: I guess somebody would need to write a
bit of docs about security concerns. Or you can go the way Markdown did
it: from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763#section-2

"Security considerations:

      Markdown interpreted as plain text is relatively harmless.  A text
      editor need only display the text.  The editor SHOULD take care to
      handle control characters appropriately and to limit the effect of
      the Markdown to the text-editing area itself; malicious Unicode-
      based Markdown could, for example, surreptitiously change the
      directionality of the text.  An editor for normal text would
      already take these control characters into consideration, however.

      Markdown interpreted as a precursor to other formats, such as
      HTML, carries all of the security considerations as the target
      formats.  For example, HTML can contain instructions to execute
      scripts, redirect the user to other web pages, download remote
      content, and upload personally identifiable information.  Markdown
      also can contain islands of formal markup, such as HTML.  These
      islands of formal markup may be passed as they are, transformed,
      or ignored (perhaps because the islands are conditional or
      incompatible) when the Markdown is processed.  Since Markdown may
      have different interpretations depending on the tool and the
      environment, a better approach is to analyze (and sanitize or
      block) the output markup, rather than attempting to analyze the
      Markdown.
"

Do they have an org-babel?

Thanks,

Andrea


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-10-24 15:58 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 31+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-09-04 14:44 Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type TEC
2020-09-04 16:14 ` Gustav Wikström
2020-09-05  5:30 ` stardiviner
2020-09-05  5:50   ` Bastien
2020-09-05  5:53     ` TEC
2020-09-17  7:09       ` TEC
2020-09-17  7:18         ` hj-orgmode-1
2020-09-23  7:31           ` Bastien
2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
2020-10-01  5:48                 ` TEC
2020-10-01  6:46                   ` Bastien
2020-10-01 15:39               ` Wes Hardaker
2020-10-01 15:45                 ` TEC
2020-10-06 18:03                   ` Wes Hardaker
2020-10-06 19:03                     ` TEC
2020-10-06 20:39                       ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-24 12:09                     ` Bastien
2020-10-24 12:28                       ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-24 12:50                         ` Bastien
2020-10-24 13:09                           ` Leo Vivier
2020-10-24 13:38                             ` Bastien
2020-10-24 13:49                               ` Leo Vivier
2020-10-24 15:12                                 ` Bastien
2020-10-24 15:00                           ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-24 15:40                             ` Bastien
2020-10-24 15:57                               ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-14  9:52               ` Lennart C. Karssen
2020-10-14 14:22                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-09-24 20:25 Andrea
2020-09-24 20:25 Andrea

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